!00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Rhodnar
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!00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Rhodnar » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:20 pm

Most if not all devotees of the 'big three' religions would claim that their God is perfect.
It follows then, that in their opinion, their God must possess 'perfect justness'*, along with 'perfect' every other attribute. After all, it's perfect.

Most if not all devotees of the 'big three' religions would claim that their God is the ultimate moral authority in the Universe.
It follows then that, in their opinion, their God is morally perfect.

Most if not all of would agree that “Although democracy may not be a perfect system, it's the best system we've got.”.
It follows then that we do not consider the “My word is law” scenario to be just.

However; many of you are willing to accept that a perfectly moral, perfectly just, creator of the Universe, considers the “My word is law” scenario to be perfectly just. However; for the “My word is law” scenario to be perfectly just, for a creator God, would mean that no “more just” scenario could possibly exist. After all, if God is perfectly just, and perfectly moral, He wouldn't have created anything but the “most just possible” universe. Here's the problem, even I can see a “more just” scenario than that, and I'm not omniscient. Oh, and before you point to my not being omniscient as a possible reason for my scenario being impossible, isn't nothing impossible for your God?

What is it?
A universe in which a 'truly just' creator or creators, do nothing to influence the outcome of its/their creation. We make our beds, we lie in them.

What is more I can even visualize a 'truly just' scenario.
What is it?
A multiverse were every possible scenario plays out, and therefore we all become 'truly just' ourselves somewhere, and are then elevated to 'truly just creator beings' ourselves. I am truly just, and that is what my creation would have been like.
To many of you, that may not sound like the sort of system that a 'loving creator' would create. After all, people are suffering here, some of them horribly. The world is full of inequality and injustice. Etc:.

To avoid getting all bogged down in verbiage, since I proposed this creation scenario, I will use the first person in the following Socratic methodology.

Why don't you put an end to injustice?

Could you learn what justness is without having witnessed or experienced injustice?

How can you let children die of diseases?

Could you learn to care for others if nobody needed your care?
If I prevented suffering, here, why not there too, oh, and there, and there...?

What about Hitler?

If I took Hitler out of history, the timeline would have changed, and who knows, maybe billions would have died not millions.
Any manipulation of your lives on Earth, no matter how slight, would alter the future.
To truly have freewill, you have to be truly free. That requires that there be no 'fixing' from an external source.

Does that mean that nobody gets punished by you either?

Yes. You were all born into the world that you created, and were thus created by it. Who am I to judge? Had Hitler been born into a different world, would he have followed the same path? Who should I hold to account?

How can you let horrible things happen to us if you love us?

Because I love you so much, that I have to let you be free. I cannot lift a finger to 'help you', but there is nothing that I wouldn't endure 'for you'.

These were just a few questions that I felt might be asked. If you have others please fire away. I know that it can be a harsh proposition to people who believe in gods, prayers being answered, and carrot and stick lifestyles, but there you are.

The truly just would never consider themselves gods, and if your God isn't truly just, it isn't perfect.



*As you no doubt understand, there is no such thing as 'perfect justness' as it pertains to all possible scenarios. What may be just for person (a) may not be quite as just for person (b) and not at all just for person (c), in a complex utilization of justness. For that reason I use the term 'true justness', meaning the 'most just possible' application of justness.

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attofishpi
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by attofishpi » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:34 pm

....my knowledge only renders you a tw@t. But, sure, have another post of poor comprehension of reality..

HexHammer
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by HexHammer » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:11 pm

The Prophecy of the Popes proves otherwise!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes

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attofishpi
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by attofishpi » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:12 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:11 pm
The Prophecy of the Popes proves otherwise!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes
There was a time when i thought you did logic hex.

HexHammer
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by HexHammer » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:19 am

attofishpi wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:12 pm
HexHammer wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:11 pm
The Prophecy of the Popes proves otherwise!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes
There was a time when i thought you did logic hex.
Then explain what's illogical about it, I see no flaws!

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Harbal
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Harbal » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:38 am

HexHammer wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:11 pm
The Prophecy of the Popes proves otherwise!!
You should never listen to men who wear funny hats, Hex.

Belinda
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Belinda » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:01 am

Rhodnar wrote:
Most if not all devotees of the 'big three' religions would claim that their God is perfect.
It follows then, that in their opinion, their God must possess 'perfect justness'*, along with 'perfect' every other attribute. After all, it's perfect.
Perfect justness allowed for creation to happen. Creation is a cavity or vacuum within perfect justness: a suggestion not a claim.

HexHammer
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by HexHammer » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:22 am

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:38 am
HexHammer wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:11 pm
The Prophecy of the Popes proves otherwise!!
You should never listen to men who wear funny hats, Hex.
Problem is that this prophecy foretells their own undoing of the men with funny hats!

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Immanuel Can
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:37 pm

Rhodnar wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:20 pm
After all, people are suffering here, some of them horribly. The world is full of inequality and injustice. Etc:.
Once again, you simply begged your central question.

How do you know that "equality" is "just"? What frame of reference can you, in an Atheist universe, call upon to invoke such a judgment? If you are just making a personal-preference statement, why is anyone else bound to share it?
Why don't you put an end to injustice?
Prove "injustice" exists, first. You haven't shown that. For as per Atheism, nothing can be "unjust." We are merely the late products of an accidental cosmic process, and (pace Dilbert) "organic pain-collectors, racing toward oblivion." :shock: For an "organic pain collector" that is merely "racing toward oblivion," what can be "just"? :shock:
Could you learn what justness is without having witnessed or experienced injustice?
Why would it matter if you "learn" anything, if you're an "organic pain collector..."?

You have no grounds for any objection, no matter how much pain and suffering, or as you gratuitously call it, "injustice" exists in the world. For you are an Atheist: and you can expect nothing but accidents, happenstances, chance, causality, inevitability and death. One does not speak of these things -- from cosmic explosions to landslides, to earthquakes, to fires, to diseases, to violent interactions of particles and persons, to death itself as "unjust."

From whom did you come to expect justice? :shock: You don't believe there's Anybody who could give it to you! :shock:

Hence, you cannot ask for it now.

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Harbal
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Harbal » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:42 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:37 pm


From whom did you come to expect justice? :shock: You don't believe there's Anybody who could give it to you! :shock:

Hence, you cannot ask for it now.
If we are civilised we can ask it of each other, regardless of any religious beliefs we may or may not have.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:47 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:37 pm


From whom did you come to expect justice? :shock: You don't believe there's Anybody who could give it to you! :shock:

Hence, you cannot ask for it now.
If we are civilised we can ask it of each other, regardless of any religious beliefs we may or may not have.
I grant you that: but Atheism will not. Atheism declares all such claims nonsense.

I agree that you have the right to make them, but I can agree because I'm a Theist. An Atheist, acting strictly within the logic of Atheism, has no basis to do so.

I would further argue that the Atheist's compulsion to do so, despite its total irrationality within his own worldview, is a further indicator that the Atheist senses the falseness of Atheism. There is some deep instance of what Sartre called "bad faith" going on in Atheism.

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Harbal
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Harbal » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:47 pm
An Atheist, acting strictly within the logic of Atheism, has no basis to do so.
I was speaking more of an Atheist acting as a civilised human being, which, believe it or not, does sometimes happen.
I would further argue that the Atheist's compulsion to do so, despite its total irrationality within his own worldview, is a further indicator that the Atheist senses the falseness of Atheism.
You know damn well that atheism per se is not irrational and there is absolutely no justification for supposing the typical Atheist has any doubts about his view.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:23 pm

Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:12 pm

I was speaking more of an Atheist acting as a civilised human being, which, believe it or not, does sometimes happen.
I never doubted it does. But if it does, it has nothing to do with his Atheism. For by lights of his Atheism, he should be amoral.
You know damn well that atheism per se is not irrational
Oh yes it is. If it is not, it should be perfectly easy to show the evidence Atheism (allegedly) has for its central "no god" proposition. But as it is, there is no such evidence or argument available to Atheism.

And Atheists know that. Just like David knows Atheism is amoral. But they don't want to admit what they certainly do know. That's what makes Atheism a case of "bad faith," as per Sartre.
...and there is absolutely no justification for supposing the typical Atheist has any doubts about his view.
If he doesn't, he should have. :shock: His insistence on certitude in the face of his lack of evidence, if such is his situation, is surely no credit to him.

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Harbal
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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by Harbal » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:42 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:23 pm
I never doubted it does. But if it does, it has nothing to do with his Atheism.
Yes, I agree with that.
Oh yes it is. If it is not, it should be perfectly easy to show the evidence Atheism (allegedly) has for its central "no god" proposition. But as it is, there is no such evidence or argument available to Atheism.
You're being disingenuous here. Arguments against theism and religion have always been mainly based on their irrationality, you're just trying to turn it round steal that piece of high ground.
Atheism is amoral.
Yes, I agree again. It is the person that is or is not moral.
But they don't want to admit what they certainly do know. That's what makes Atheism a case of "bad faith," as per Sartre.
I can only speak about myself, which is a subject I consider myself to be a more reliable authority on than Sartre is.
His insistence on certitude in the face of his lack of evidence, if such is his situation, is surely no credit to him.
You're turning the situation on its head again: It is belief that demands evidence.

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Re: !00% Proof Gods Don't Exist: Part Deux.

Post by uwot » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:23 pm
Harbal wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:12 pm

I was speaking more of an Atheist acting as a civilised human being, which, believe it or not, does sometimes happen.
I never doubted it does. But if it does, it has nothing to do with his Atheism. For by lights of his Atheism, he should be amoral.
Good grief. Even by your standards this is laughable logic.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:23 pm
You know damn well that atheism per se is not irrational
Oh yes it is. If it is not, it should be perfectly easy to show the evidence Atheism (allegedly) has for its central "no god" proposition. But as it is, there is no such evidence or argument available to Atheism.
Oh no it isn't. There central proposition is not that there is no god, simply that an atheist does not believe it. For someone with intellectual pretensions, you really should try to get your head around that.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:23 pm
...and there is absolutely no justification for supposing the typical Atheist has any doubts about his view.
If he doesn't, he should have. :shock: His insistence on certitude in the face of his lack of evidence, if such is his situation, is surely no credit to him.
Few atheists claim certainty. The ones that do are misguided. The theists who claim certainty are either blessed by some deity, who even atheists generally accept might exist, or, more commonly, they are desperate and quite possibly mental.

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