100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Lacewing »

Reflex wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:08 am But human judgment and ideas are not meaningless on the cosmic level. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation...
Human judgment and ideas are as limited as we are. They're like a primitive language based on primitive understanding. Regardless of everything being connected, we aren't even aware of most of it -- so, how would our little monkey thoughts have significance across a vast advanced network? Imagine all that we might yet discover, that already exists, and that doesn't rely on us at all. Our MEANINGS are suited for US. Regardless of our connectivity with all, why would our meanings, judgments, and ideas extend (or be required) beyond our world?
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Greta
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Greta »

Reflex wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:08 amBut human judgment and ideas are not meaningless on the cosmic level. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation. It is literally true: “No man lives by himself.” Cosmic socialization constitutes the highest form of personality unification. Every impulse of every electron is an acting unit in the whole universe: we are co-creators.
I think what Lacewing is saying that, if a large cosmic body was heading calamitously towards Earth, human judgement and ideas would not only be effectively meaningless, but would disappear from at least this small part of the galactic neighbourhood.

Certainly we are part of something larger - but it's usually trying to kill us :) Every moment of every day our environments are mindlessly pushing to invade our bodies and pull us apart to become in balance again. Order v entropy. Every day our evolved body and mental systems heroically repel our environments', predators', parasites' and competitors' assaults upon our being. One day, of course, the environment will win this tug-o-war and we cease to be active players and return to the environment for re-use.

Whatever judgement we have achieved is a maturing of this nook in the galaxy, just as the dinos were once that most mature expression of life, and the trilobites that preceded them as a dominant species, and so on. A quick scan of the web suggests that humans today also still have a little [sic] room for growth and maturation, which hopefully won't be cut short by calamity.
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Greta
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Greta »

Ah, we posted at the same time, LW. I took the wrong angle with your post :)
Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex »

Lacewing wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:51 am
Reflex wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:08 am But human judgment and ideas are not meaningless on the cosmic level. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation...
Human judgment and ideas are as limited as we are. They're like a primitive language based on primitive understanding. Regardless of everything being connected, we aren't even aware of most of it -- so, how would our little monkey thoughts have significance across a vast advanced network? Imagine all that we might yet discover, that already exists, and that doesn't rely on us at all. Our MEANINGS are suited for US. Regardless of our connectivity with all, why would our meanings, judgments, and ideas extend (or be required) beyond our world?
Yes, we are finite. Our thoughts are primitive and have little effect in relation to the whole, but they are not meaningless or isolated events: our lives are entangled with the cosmic organism.
davidm
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by davidm »

Reflex wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:25 pm Nothing "supernatural" about it. In fact, just the opposite. What can be more natural or more real than that what cannot not be?
If by this you mean god, you have not demonstrated that such an entity exists.

Some things indeed cannot not be: Triangles cannot not have three sides. Any necessary truth is like this.

Gravity is not like this. So far as we can tell gravity holds at all times and places and always has. Yet gravity is not a necessary fact about the world. It is a contingent fact. This is because one can conceive of a gravity-free world, or a world in which gravity behaves differently, without bringing about a logical contradiction. So even if gravity holds everywhere and at all times, and always has and always will, it nevertheless remains a contingent feature of the world.

What about God? Here is the sketch of an argument:

I can conceive of a world at which God does not exist without bringing about a logical contradiction.

But if I can conceive of a world at which God does not exist without bringing about a logical contradiction, this means god does not exist at some possible worlds.

But if God does not exist at some possible worlds, then God does not necessarily exist.

If god does not necessarily exist he necessarily does not exist at all possible worlds.

If god does not exist at all possible worlds he does not exist at the actual world.

If god does not exist at the actual world, then god does not exist.

Therefore, God does not exist.
Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex »

davidm wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:56 am
Reflex wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:25 pm Nothing "supernatural" about it. In fact, just the opposite. What can be more natural or more real than that what cannot not be?
If by this you mean god, you have not demonstrated that such an entity exists.

Some things indeed cannot not be: Triangles cannot not have three sides. Any necessary truth is like this.

Gravity is not like this. So far as we can tell gravity holds at all times and places and always has. Yet gravity is not a necessary fact about the world. It is a contingent fact. This is because one can conceive of a gravity-free world, or a world in which gravity behaves differently, without bringing about a logical contradiction. So even if gravity holds everywhere and at all times, and always has and always will, it nevertheless remains a contingent feature of the world.

What about God? Here is the sketch of an argument:

I can conceive of a world at which God does not exist without bringing about a logical contradiction.

But if I can conceive of a world at which God does not exist without bringing about a logical contradiction, this means god does not exist at some possible worlds.

But if God does not exist at some possible worlds, then God does not necessarily exist.

If god does not necessarily exist he necessarily does not exist at all possible worlds.

If god does not exist at all possible worlds he does not exist at the actual world.

If god does not exist at the actual world, then god does not exist.

Therefore, God does not exist.
"An entity"? Your "argument" falls apart right there.
davidm
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by davidm »

Reflex wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:28 am
"An entity"? Your "argument" falls apart right there.
This one-liner nonsense is the best you can up with in response to what I wrote?

Wake me when you write something worth reading.
Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex »

davidm wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:41 am
Reflex wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:28 am
"An entity"? Your "argument" falls apart right there.
This one-liner nonsense is the best you can up with in response to what I wrote?

Wake me when you write something worth reading.
I will -- when you come up with something more original or not addressed so many time people have lost count.
Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex »

Aw, what the heck.

God is the power to be, the power to overcome nothingness. So, whatever world you conceive, whatever form your world takes, there is God.

Your first premise fails, and the Euthyphro dilemma fails for the same reason.
Londoner
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Londoner »

God is the power to be, the power to overcome nothingness.
OR, why can't God be the 'power of Nothingness' that overcomes the 'power to Be'? Think of all those things that are-not. All down to God. Impressive, eh?

Except why doesn't either power deliver the knock-out blow and create total-being, or total-nothingness? And if they did that, would the two powers be reduced to just one?

I can sort-of imagine a universe that contains no-things, (or rather, a no-universe), but I have problems with a universe which contains no-nothings. Where every possibility is realised simultaneously. (It will make doing logic tricky, with no 'not' value.) But then, if every possibility existed, won't that also include the 'power of Nothingness'? And so on.

This particular variety of silliness can be generated because Being and Nothingness are not two alternatives, they are both sides of the same coin. The meaning of each word depends on the other, so one can hardly 'overcome' the other. And they are words, not things. 'Being' is not the name of a being'. 'Nothing' is not the name of a different being. And the two of them are not having a fight.
Reflex
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Re: 100% Proof That Gods Do Not Exist

Post by Reflex »

Londoner wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:17 am
God is the power to be, the power to overcome nothingness.
OR, why can't God be the 'power of Nothingness' that overcomes the 'power to Be'? Think of all those things that are-not. All down to God. Impressive, eh?

Except why doesn't either power deliver the knock-out blow and create total-being, or total-nothingness? And if they did that, would the two powers be reduced to just one?

I can sort-of imagine a universe that contains no-things, (or rather, a no-universe), but I have problems with a universe which contains no-nothings. Where every possibility is realised simultaneously. (It will make doing logic tricky, with no 'not' value.) But then, if every possibility existed, won't that also include the 'power of Nothingness'? And so on.

This particular variety of silliness can be generated because Being and Nothingness are not two alternatives, they are both sides of the same coin. The meaning of each word depends on the other, so one can hardly 'overcome' the other. And they are words, not things. 'Being' is not the name of a being'. 'Nothing' is not the name of a different being. And the two of them are not having a fight.
Yup. You hit the nail on the head! Fantastic post! I really mean that.

I don't think you can appreciate just how much your post goes to the very heart of my religious philosophy. Phrases like "God is the power to be, the power to overcome nothingness," like all or nearly all religious languages, are analogical, not univocal.
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