How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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attofishpi
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

Post by attofishpi »

Science Fan wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:51 pm Why does the thread suggest a Christian should expect to convert "idiots"? It's really amazing how theists demonize atheists. So, now atheists are "idiots"? Why? For not believing in pregnant virgins, talking snakes, and a plague of frogs?
Simpleton - oh you read some of the buy bull?
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Simpleton? For being an atheist who doesn't believe in the Bible, and who stands against theists who demonize atheists? That's hardly the case.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Ken: Beliefs are necessary. One cannot know something without also believing in it. Knowledge is a subset of belief.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Science Fan wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:07 pm Simpleton? For being an atheist who doesn't believe in the Bible, and who stands against theists who demonize atheists? That's hardly the case.
Yes, you are looking at it rather simply. Tho I am being harsh, and in this life of yours, you were unlikely destined to know, perhaps your next life you will be a fan of the truth to reality...i am a huge fan of science, and i know God exists.
Last edited by attofishpi on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Seeds: So you think there is an unfathomable order to things? Is that why we have a second law of thermodynamics that states the universe is becoming increasingly disordered?
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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I'm looking at it too simply? I don't believe in the Bible, and I don't like the numerous passages in the Bible that demonize atheists. I'm not sure why I need to add any thing additional to unduly complicate things.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Science Fan wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:12 pm I'm looking at it too simply? I don't believe in the Bible, and I don't like the numerous passages in the Bible that demonize atheists. I'm not sure why I need to add any thing additional to unduly complicate things.
I don't like being termed "deluded" either. I don't like suggestions that i am expected to convert people's opinions.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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It's a fact that Christians claim that they need to "save" others. But, since the Bible states atheists can never be saved, it looks like Christians like you have admitted that Jesus' power is limited and not godly in any way. It's rather comical, actually.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Science Fan wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:33 pm It's a fact that Christians claim that they need to "save" others.
I don't think they all claim that but I've noticed your tendency towards the sweeping statement.
It's rather comical, actually.
Yes, you've already established that your sense of humour is primitive.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Oh, lookie, there is Harbal, yet again proudly displaying his ignorance. Christian scripture does state that Christians have an obligation to seek out converts, which is why so many of them are evangelicals, who even knock on people's doors seeking converts. But, of course, facts never matter to you.

Harbal, besides being an immature child spending your time insulting me, are you ever going to offer a single substantive comment of merit? The smart money says no.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Science Fan wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:11 pm Seeds: So you think there is an unfathomable order to things? Is that why we have a second law of thermodynamics that states the universe is becoming increasingly disordered?
SF..I just felt like I had to chime in with my big think idea when I read your comment.

What if what you are talking about here (our universe) is just one grain of sand in an infinite desert of possibility. Imagine the current observable universe to be the size of one single cell inside a human body, cells that carry out their specific role and then once completed die off. Can you see where I'm going with this?

The word Unfathomable is probably right on the button. Infinity is big big place - relatively speaking.

.

PS..I'm glad seeds has come back to the forum. I would really like to begin to fathom seeds ideas.

.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Science Fan wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:44 pm Christian scripture does state that Christians have an obligation to seek out converts,
Regardless of what the "scripture" might say, I think you'll find that the average Christian doesn't bother to go seeking out converts.
Harbal, besides being an immature child
Wrong again, I can assure you that I'm a very mature child.
are you ever going to offer a single substantive comment of merit? The smart money says no.
The smart money is probably correct in saying that, I don't think I know any "substantive comments of merit".
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Science Fan wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:12 pm I'm looking at it too simply? I don't believe in the Bible,
Biblical literature is symbolic. As soon as you start to take it literally - your world will become a literally created prison for you created from your own mentation. A reality of your own creation.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

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Dontaskme wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:59 pm Biblical literature is symbolic. As soon as you start to take it literally - your world will become a literally created prison for you created from your own mentation. A reality of your own creation.
Go away, Dontask, SF is the resident idiot on this thread.
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Re: How do Christians Expect to Convert Atheists?

Post by ken »

Dubious wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:36 am
ken wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:50 am
How are you so sure there is NO argument that can prove that God exits, AND, that there is not an argument can prove God does not exist? What evidence and/or proof to back up this statement? If you had written some thing like, no sound, valid argument has YET been given for the existence or non-existence of God, then I would have wholeheartedly agreed with you. But your statement appears to be a pretty big claim of what the truth actually IS.
With arguments one can prove virtually anything which only requires logic to prove "itself" without having proved anything beyond it, namely the actual object of its proof. Human ingenuity can devise any number of these perfect logic crystals without having ascertained anything which amounts to substance. Do you imagine god can ever be extracted or de-quarantined with any arguments of human manufacture?
I could create an argument that does that, but that is because i discovered what God IS. I am not basing the argument on what i think or presume what God is. However, if human beings choose to believe that it is possible or not to devise an argument is one matter, and if human beings choose to believe that that argument is sound and valid or not is another matter. Some people, no matter what is put in front of them, they will disagree anyway. What I have found is people can choose whether to believe or disbelieve the exact same thing no matter how much evidence or proof exists or not. Adult human beings tend to make up what is true, right, and correct, based on their own past experiences, BEFORE things are actually seen, known, and fully understood. So, it would not matter how sound and valid My argument is people will choose to look at it and see it from the views and beliefs that they already have. They base things on their experiences. Therefore, there is really not much use in providing and showing such argument.

(That should tease out pressure to devise an argument.)

What is much better is if people just open up by themselves, then they will find and see truth for themselves. Once 'God' is seen and understood for who and what It really is, instead of being assumed to be some thing, as what happens at present, then sound, valid arguments form naturally and very simply and easily by "themselves".
Dubious wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:36 amIf that were possible it should be likewise credible to understand everything there is know about the universe simply by formulating the right arguments.
But unfortunately it does not work like that. Human beings tend to want to experience some thing before they accept the truth of it. For example most, if not all, children want to experience what a hot stove or hot fire actually feels like BEFORE they will believe it is hot. No matter how many times they are told that it is hot, no matter times they are told not to touch it, and/or no matter how much logically sound and valid arguments they are told prior they still want to touch it. Human beings learn far more from experience than from just being told something.

Maybe I should tell human beings do not open up because it is hot. If you do open up, then you will learn ALL the meaningful and purposeful things in Life, by yourself. Do not open up because you will then find and see all the answers you are looking for. Being fully and completely open leads you to understanding what it is that you truly want and to being able to get and achieve that. So, do not open up, just remain closed by keeping the beliefs that you have now.

If and when an adult human being opens up and is completely honest, then they can experience and thus see and understand Life for what It really is. When that happens then they can understand everything there is to know about the Universe, (from the meaningful perspective that is, and not from the physical perspective, as understanding the physical perspective of the Universe is an eternal lesson), and then the right arguments more or less just fall into place by themselves.

The problem with formulating the right arguments for an adult human being who already has fixed beliefs and opinions is how to discover what those already formed beliefs, opinions, views actually are? This needs to be done first so that the 'right' argument can then be formulated for them in such a way so that from their perspective what is to be understood can be understood.
Dubious wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:36 am If god exists and wishes to remain incognito there's no amount of flawlessly contrived arguments going to flush him out.
The main reason human beings can not see and understand God for what It really is because of examples like you have just provided here. You have and keep making assumptions and jumping to conclusions about what God is and what God does BEFORE you have any evidence and proof and thus KNOW what God IS and what It does. Although you began this sentence with 'If', you are still making many assumptions here. What about; If God exists and adult human beings are absolutely free to choose, and an adult human being freely chooses to be totally honest about all of their wrong doing, especially to children, they know they brought children into Life and thus accepts and takes fully responsibility for all of their behaviors they do and in the process fully opens up also and is able to learn for more quickly, simply, and easily. They are seriously seeking and willing to change for the better and whilst doing this they come to accidentally understand what Life is all about and what God actually IS. Because they have experienced some thing that no other human being has experienced then no amount of flawless arguments, formed naturally or contrived, are going to show what this person has seen. The only way to show what this person has seen accurately, and what has been revealed to them, is to just express HOW things can be seen differently, and then they can have their OWN experiences. We can then discuss and see how similar or not our new experiences and views are. And, through peaceful logically reasoned discussions we will see if flawless arguments form or not.
Dubious wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:36 am The best logic can accomplish regarding god and such-like entities are presuppositions which end then repeat the same presuppositions. Such arguments are clearly doomed to become endlessly recursive.
If you assume/believe that is the best logic can accomplish, then so be it. I am not here to change your beliefs and/or assumptions. I am just here to learn how to better express how you can see and understand things for and by yourself better. If you want to listen or not is another matter.

If people just wait till they find out what God actually IS first, then they will see and understand what the actual best is that logic can accomplish regarding such-like entities as God.
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