I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Seleucus
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Seleucus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat May 20, 2017 8:10 pmOk. Here's one for you. The Empire State Building. In my opinion the most beautiful iconic building in the world--
Very happy to see that. I was feeling concerned there may have been cognitive distortion ("discounting the positive", "all or nothing thinking" and so on) undermining objectivity in our discussion.
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Seleucus
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

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Greta wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 1:13 amI think, though, that poor living conditions have been at the root of fundamentalist Islam's rise.

I think it goes like this: miserable people hope that there is "a better life out there somewhere". Along come various religions promising something better. If you are living in painful, squalid conditions, a dying baby hopelessly trying to draw milk from your dried breast, why not retreat into a magical mental world? Starving and sick people are ripe for control. All they need is a little help, and for the helpers to blame someone for their misery and provide a good story - as is provided by Imams.
I would just tweek this a little. The movement is a form of negative identification. (This movement I believe is very important in understanding Islam, I sometimes think of Islam as the shadow of Rome. No one could fail to notice that Islam occupies almost exactly the formerly Greco-Roman lands, from Pakistan to the Crimea to Morroco.) The great hope of the masses of the developing world was prosperity and freedom. But as the prosperity and freedom that came to the 3rd world was largely brought in my the colonizers, not an indigenous accomplishment, when the developing world was left to fend for itself, there was a total failure. The aspirations of freedom and prosperity gave way to hopelessness and resentment. Radical Islam is then taken as the opposite of the American dream that came to nothing and in the dualistic thinking of simple mind (and more sophisticated too), embrace of Islamism represents the rejection of a failed hope and dream.
Greta wrote:Their problem is the same as Africa's - primitively corrupt leadership. The kind of leadership the west endured over a century ago, with women disempowered and young children working in perilous coal mines.
Timur Kuran writes extensively on this problem. Civilizations have enormous inertia, their elements are multiply reinforced, and there are defense mechanisms, all of which makes cultures highly resistant to change and likely to follow their "civilizational trajectories".
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Seleucus
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

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Greta wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 1:39 amThe golden age of Islam was around the thirteenth century, with flourishing commerce and trade, sciences, arts, medicine and architecture.
No, by that time the Muslim world was in implosion, the Semites and Mediterraneans (Sunni) were in religious war against the Indo-Aryans (Shia) and the Turks and Mongols from the East and the Greeks and Latins from the West were moving in at full speed.

The Golden Age of Islam was over by 900. In addition, the Golden Age of Islam, I would argue, had little to do with Islam, and much more to do with a resurgence of the long culturally dominant peoples, particularly the Persians and Greeks and throwing off of the influence of the Arab invaders and colonizers. Al-Mutawakkil who reigned from 847–861 reversed the rationalist agenda of his Abbasid predecessors and sent the civilization on track back into dogmatism, which continues to today. Also note, Muslim and Golden Age accomplishments were in the fields of medicine and mathematics, because philosophy, art, and literature care (non-Islamic) values and were therefore repressed. A book like Jim Al-Khalili's How Arabic Science Saved Ancient Knowledge and Gave Us the Renaissance is practically grotesque since the Islamic contribution spurring the Renaissance was the sacking of Constantinople leading to masses of Greek refugees bringing their knowledge and books to Italy.
Last edited by Seleucus on Sun May 21, 2017 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Seleucus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 1:45 amThey've had their countries destroyed for what? They didn't blow up their own countries.
Unfortunately very few people are well read in Near Eastern and Islamic history either inside or outside the Muslim world.

Blaming others and not looking within is a common framing of the failed history of the Muslim world as told in Muslim sources. But I would suggest a somewhat different narrative which I have sketched above. The collapse of Islamic civilization is best explained by internal and not external forces:
Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am...
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:23 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 1:45 amThey've had their countries destroyed for what? They didn't blow up their own countries.
Unfortunately very few people are well read in Near Eastern and Islamic history either inside or outside the Muslim world.

Blaming others and not looking within is a common framing of the failed history of the Muslim world as told in Muslim sources. But I would suggest a somewhat different narrative which I have sketched above. The collapse of Islamic civilization is best explained by internal and not external forces:
Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am...
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.
Oh well. Keep wanking over the US. Move there then. Who's stopping you?
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:43 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:23 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 1:45 amThey've had their countries destroyed for what? They didn't blow up their own countries.
Unfortunately very few people are well read in Near Eastern and Islamic history either inside or outside the Muslim world.

Blaming others and not looking within is a common framing of the failed history of the Muslim world as told in Muslim sources. But I would suggest a somewhat different narrative which I have sketched above. The collapse of Islamic civilization is best explained by internal and not external forces:
Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am...
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.
Oh well. Keep wanking over the US. Move there then. Who's stopping you?
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims. Recall that we have digressed from your point: "The US is to blame for the rise of radical islam" [sic].
Last edited by Seleucus on Sun May 21, 2017 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:54 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:43 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:23 am
Unfortunately very few people are well read in Near Eastern and Islamic history either inside or outside the Muslim world.

Blaming others and not looking within is a common framing of the failed history of the Muslim world as told in Muslim sources. But I would suggest a somewhat different narrative which I have sketched above. The collapse of Islamic civilization is best explained by internal and not external forces:



And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.
Oh well. Keep wanking over the US. Move there then. Who's stopping you?
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.
Look it up yourself. Am I your mother? Go and live in the US and live off McDonald's for all I give a flying fuck about.
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Seleucus
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Seleucus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:56 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:54 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:43 am
Oh well. Keep wanking over the US. Move there then. Who's stopping you?
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.
Look it up yourself. Am I your mother? Go and live in the US and live off McDonald's for all I give a flying fuck about.
I would suggest a somewhat different narrative which I have sketched above. The collapse of Islamic civilization is best explained by internal and not external forces:
Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am...
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.

I suspect you have not even so much as watched a documentary on the History Channel or read a Wikipedia page on the history of Islamic civilization.

I suggested that a psychological complex called cognitive distortion is making it impossible to grant that America or the West have amazing merits and much to offer the Islamic world. Due to "labeling", "all or nothing thinking", "black and white thinking", "discounting the positive" and so on, ability to analyze objectively has been lost.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:59 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:56 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:54 am
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.
Look it up yourself. Am I your mother? Go and live in the US and live off McDonald's for all I give a flying fuck about.
I would suggest a somewhat different narrative which I have sketched above. The collapse of Islamic civilization is best explained by internal and not external forces:
Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am...
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.

I suspect you have not even so much as watched a documentary on the History Channel or read a Wikipedia page on the history of Islamic civilization.

I suggested that a psychological complex called cognitive distortion is making it impossible to grant that America or the West have amazing merits and much to offer the Islamic world. Due to "labeling", "all or nothing thinking", "black and white thinking", "discounting the positive" and so on, any ability to analyze objectively has be lost.
I suggest you do all that. And then move to your dream, the US. You might have to live in a car for a while (if you have one). And they don't like muslims much.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Seleucus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 6:03 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:59 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:56 am

Look it up yourself. Am I your mother? Go and live in the US and live off McDonald's for all I give a flying fuck about.
I would suggest a somewhat different narrative which I have sketched above. The collapse of Islamic civilization is best explained by internal and not external forces:
Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am...
And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.

I suspect you have not even so much as watched a documentary on the History Channel or read a Wikipedia page on the history of Islamic civilization.

I suggested that a psychological complex called cognitive distortion is making it impossible to grant that America or the West have amazing merits and much to offer the Islamic world. Due to "labeling", "all or nothing thinking", "black and white thinking", "discounting the positive" and so on, any ability to analyze objectively has be lost.
I suggest you do all that. And then move to your dream, the US. You might have to live in a car for a while (if you have one). And they don't like muslims much.
I have already laid out my time-line and argument why internal and not external forces better explain the collapse of Islamic civilization:
Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am...
I suggested that a psychological complex called cognitive distortion is making it impossible to grant that America or the West have amazing merits and much to offer the Islamic world. Due to "labeling", "all or nothing thinking", "black and white thinking", "discounting the positive" and so on, ability to analyze objectively is being lost.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 6:20 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 6:03 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:59 am
I would suggest a somewhat different narrative which I have sketched above. The collapse of Islamic civilization is best explained by internal and not external forces:



And I will ask you, again, to go ahead and lay out the time-line you are imagining whereby external Western invaders are the cause of the civilizational collapse of the Muslims.

I suspect you have not even so much as watched a documentary on the History Channel or read a Wikipedia page on the history of Islamic civilization.

I suggested that a psychological complex called cognitive distortion is making it impossible to grant that America or the West have amazing merits and much to offer the Islamic world. Due to "labeling", "all or nothing thinking", "black and white thinking", "discounting the positive" and so on, any ability to analyze objectively has be lost.
I suggest you do all that. And then move to your dream, the US. You might have to live in a car for a while (if you have one). And they don't like muslims much.
I have already laid out my time-line and argument why internal and not external forces better explain the collapse of Islamic civilization:
Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am...
I suggested that a psychological complex called cognitive distortion is making it impossible to grant that America or the West have amazing merits and much to offer the Islamic world. Due to "labeling", "all or nothing thinking", "black and white thinking", "discounting the positive" and so on, ability to analyze objectively is being lost.
:lol:
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Seleucus
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Seleucus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 7:23 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 6:20 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 6:03 am
I suggest you do all that. And then move to your dream, the US. You might have to live in a car for a while (if you have one). And they don't like muslims much.
I have already laid out my time-line and argument why internal and not external forces better explain the collapse of Islamic civilization:
Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am...
I suggested that a psychological complex called cognitive distortion is making it impossible to grant that America or the West have amazing merits and much to offer the Islamic world. Due to "labeling", "all or nothing thinking", "black and white thinking", "discounting the positive" and so on, ability to analyze objectively is being lost.
:lol:
So you concede that internal and not external forces better explain the collapse of Islamic civilization and regret that cognitive distortion was making it impossible to analyze objectively and grant that America and the West have amazing merits.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 7:32 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 7:23 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 6:20 am
I have already laid out my time-line and argument why internal and not external forces better explain the collapse of Islamic civilization:



I suggested that a psychological complex called cognitive distortion is making it impossible to grant that America or the West have amazing merits and much to offer the Islamic world. Due to "labeling", "all or nothing thinking", "black and white thinking", "discounting the positive" and so on, ability to analyze objectively is being lost.
:lol:
So you concede that internal and not external forces better explain the collapse of Islamic civilization and regret that cognitive distortion was making it impossible to analyze objectively and grant that America and the West have amazing merits.
What are you blithering about you pompous fool!
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Seleucus
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Seleucus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 7:33 am
Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 7:32 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 7:23 am

:lol:
So you concede that internal and not external forces better explain the collapse of Islamic civilization and regret that cognitive distortion was making it impossible to analyze objectively and grant that America and the West have amazing merits.
What are you blithering about you pompous fool!
I need to be treated with respect. I'm not going to participate in a discussion with anyone who calls me names. End of discussion.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Greta »

Seleucus wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 5:00 am
Greta wrote: Sun May 21, 2017 1:13 amI think, though, that poor living conditions have been at the root of fundamentalist Islam's rise.

I think it goes like this: miserable people hope that there is "a better life out there somewhere". Along come various religions promising something better. If you are living in painful, squalid conditions, a dying baby hopelessly trying to draw milk from your dried breast, why not retreat into a magical mental world? Starving and sick people are ripe for control. All they need is a little help, and for the helpers to blame someone for their misery and provide a good story - as is provided by Imams.
I would just tweek this a little. The movement is a form of negative identification. (This movement I believe is very important in understanding Islam, I sometimes think of Islam as the shadow of Rome. No one could fail to notice that Islam occupies almost exactly the formerly Greco-Roman lands, from Pakistan to the Crimea to Morroco.)

Note that Islam also spread to Malaysia and Indonesia, apparently via trade.

I take your point that the Mulsims identified as "not western". Still, in a sense all identification, be it religious, nationalistic of subcultural, is also a negative identification by definition. That is, if we are this then we are by inference not that. This is the attraction of universalism in theory, although in practice universalists and altruists tend to be out-competed by self-interested entities. This is why humanity keeps encountering tragedies of the commons.
Seleucus wrote:The great hope of the masses of the developing world was prosperity and freedom. But as the prosperity and freedom that came to the 3rd world was largely brought in my the colonizers, not an indigenous accomplishment, when the developing world was left to fend for itself, there was a total failure. The aspirations of freedom and prosperity gave way to hopelessness and resentment. Radical Islam is then taken as the opposite of the American dream that came to nothing and in the dualistic thinking of simple mind (and more sophisticated too), embrace of Islamism represents the rejection of a failed hope and dream.
That looks like a failure of the colonisers to properly consider succession planning.
Seleucus wrote:
Greta wrote:Their problem is the same as Africa's - primitively corrupt leadership. The kind of leadership the west endured over a century ago, with women disempowered and young children working in perilous coal mines.
Timur Kuran writes extensively on this problem. Civilizations have enormous inertia, their elements are multiply reinforced, and there are defense mechanisms, all of which makes cultures highly resistant to change and likely to follow their "civilizational trajectories".
That makes sense to me. Yes, in philosophy much is made of how only the present moment exists, but in truth the past tails from the present like the tail of a comet, and it carries weight, or inertia as you put it. While conservative and traditionalist dogmas can provide some stability to societies, in doing so they inhibit growth.
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