I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

[Immanuel Can]

I have lived all my life in the US, but for many years I worked with a Muslim who was born and raised in Africa, immigrated to England and then to America.

If you've lived in a culture where Islam is given free reign, then believe me, you have a very different perspective on what Islam is and does, and what happens to people when they believe it. The West still does not get it...they don't know, or don't WANT to know, what they're looking at.

They're whistling in the dark...and behind them lurks a man with a scimitar.

[Greta]

...the dynamic of a wasting, flaccid and and inward-looking failing society echoes the problems faced by other empires / dominant cultures.

Interestingly, that's what the founders of the US essentially saw when they looked at Europe.

Yes, and Europe went down, just as the US is doing now.

Fox is dominant in the US too.

Actually, it's not. There are three mega-networks that dominate the television: ABC, CBS and NBC...all very leftist.

ABC, CBS and NBC are left wing??? Not in my observation. They are soft right.

The politics of that nation have also veered strongly to the right and this is largely due to media dominance.

Oh, I think that's pretty clearly incorrect. All the major networks and news sources were crowning Hillary long before she lost.

HILARY is left wing???? Further right again.

You seem blind to the changes in the political landscape in our own lifetimes. There is no left wing any more. It died. You are tilting at shadows. Bernie Sanders was slightly left of centre and was thus branded a communist. Due to the entirely neutered and tiny left, the monolithic right is dividing itself into relative right and left - and demonising each other.

Who is in a better position to influence society than billionaires and multinationals? A few rag tag lefties and uni students? Hardly. There is no competition. The right is utterly and completely dominant, so much so that what it calls "the left" these days, aside from a tiny vocal minority, is largely also right wing, just slightly less so.

Boy, that's certainly not true in the US. The Lefties practically own California and New York. And Obama had no trouble getting two terms.

Again, Obama's term was strongly conservative! Again, you consider relativities though a lens no longer than the a few electoral terms and ignore greater history.

Good luck fighting it. You will be on the losing side

.
Short term, yes. Long term, definitely no.

Individualism will defeat collectivism? If you believe that, then why are you a right winger, supporting the subsuming and total domination of the little person into monolithic government/commercial coalitions. If you were truly worried about individual rights you would vote for the tiny, neutered left to preserve them.

The right wing used to be about liberalism. Hence Australia's conservative party is the Liberal Party. Now they are only concerned with the liberty of major companies from red tape, while tightening the noose on individual personal freedoms.

Actually your regular attacks on the "left" and the "EU" are an excellent demonstration of how empires fall - internal hatreds even greater than distrust of outsiders. Your hatred for the left and the EU is obvious and visceral. You see them as evil entities that must be dismantled and destroyed

.
No, actually. I just see them as exactly what they are: unelected people, petty bureaucrats from Brussels who are being kept in check by no one, but who are building an empire to serve their own ideological and economic dreams, and pulling in as many countries as they can to do it. You'll have to forgive me for recognizing a bad idea when I see it.

So you're against nations and democracy, then? You want unelected governments who rule from abroad?

You prove my point again, illustrating the contempt with which the US holds its allies. You have no concept of the positive things the EU tried to achieve, always viewing it through the very most jaundiced lens.

At this rate the US will not have any more allies. Let's see how that works out.

Their lives were horrible but, yes, they were largely much more free.

Free to live in pre-Medieval ignorance and backwardness? Is that freedom?

It is to many theists, certainly.

Do you not see that you are less free than just decades ago?

Oh yes...but the doing of this is really all on the Left. We don't have a groundswell of big government coming from the Right...the Right supports small government and free markets. The left wants total government control and intervention in every area of life.

The non existent "left" again.

When was the last time the US had a left wing government? Carter was conservative, as was Clinton and Obama. In Australia, our only left wing government was thrown out after two years. We have otherwise never known left wing governance.

You will find that the most unreasonable restrictions are made to 1) prevent little people from inconveniencing billionaires and 2) because theists in power want to control people's private lives.

The last century has seen an excellent continuation of civilisational moral progress.

There is no such thing as human moral progress. I hate to disillusion you. We're not getting better...

Again, your very short term view of human history leads you to right wing blinkers.

Just as you convince yourself that the "left" has been a significant force in politics in the west over the last half century, you also kid yourself that moral progress is only to be measured over the course of a single century, disregarding the entirety of humankind's moral efforts over many thousands of years, and the unbelievable barbarities perpetrated en route to today's relatively gentle way of living.

[Londoner]

If you've lived in a culture where Islam is given free reign, then believe me, you have a very different perspective on what Islam is and does, and what happens to people when they believe it.

Where did - or do - you live?

[uwot]

If you've lived in a culture where Islam is given free reign...

I do. It's called London. The proportion of Muslims that mean us harm, is about the same as that of the Catholics who used to blow us up. It's probably in the same ballpark as the number of pro-lifers that are prepared to commit murder for their beliefs. It is secular law that determines who is a criminal here.

[Immanuel Can]

Yes, and Europe went down, just as the US is doing now.

Indeed, as all empires do. The EU is a mess too.

ABC, CBS and NBC are left wing??? Not in my observation. They are soft right.

I'm seeing in this, and your subsequent comments, that we are in danger of speaking past each other over the old Leftist-Rightist divide. If you're expressing how the terms are used in Oz, I can only tell you it's different here. Here, "Left" means things like advocating big government, minimizing the individual, socialized programs in medicine and welfare, identity politics, softness on crime, weakness on foreign policy...and so on. This makes most of the people you list as "right wing" very decidedly "left wing" over here. And the networks...well, apart from FOX they are all left wing.

But let's not cavil over terms. There would be no point, and it would be boring. Left-Right, whatever. If it looks different from Down Under, it just looks different, I guess.

Individualism will defeat collectivism?

No. Collectivism defeats itself. It's so ideologically-driven and so utterly uninterested in objectivity about human nature that it tends to invent structures that are doomed by their own irrationality. That's why empires fall. They all have feet of clay.

You have no concept of the positive things the EU tried to achieve, always viewing it through the very most jaundiced lens.

Oh, I understand very well what they "tried" to achieve. That's just the point. What they were prepared to do, in order to achieve their "noble goals" is the problem. That's what's always the problem with empire-building: proponents see a "high" goal...call it "Roman Order," "Western Civilization," "the Good Society," "the Third Reich," "The Triumph of the Proletariat," "European Union" or just "the pacification of all mankind"...and because the goal is assumed to be so "high," then if we have to repress, control, conquer or massacre a few minorities to achieve such a goal, then we feel justified.

So we do it. After all, we tell ourselves, objectors are "bad people"; for what other kind of person would stand in the way of our unimpeachably "noble" goals...

At this rate the US will not have any more allies. Let's see how that works out.

I don't think there's a reasonable fear of that.

Again, your very short term view of human history leads you to right wing blinkers.

Short term? Not at all. Look at the whole span. We've gotten better at making stuff, and also at killing each other, it's true. But where's the great moral leap forward?

...today's relatively gentle way of living.

"...relatively gentle"?


See how "gentle" things are in the not-so-quickly-developing world, where two-thirds of the world's population fights for survival every day. Or look at places like China, where, in their desperate rush to modernize, they mass-manage, suppress, pollute, jail, dispossess and kill with complete disregard. How "relatively gentle" is most of the world?

If you haven't been there to see it, I have. I might therefore suggest that maybe additional information may be helpful with that perception.

[Immanuel Can]

Where did - or do - you live?

Raised in a "developing" country that still hasn't developed at all...in fact, one that declined into massacres and misery, but is lately recovered. Educated and living in the developed West.

[Londoner]

Raised in a "developing" country that still hasn't developed at all...in fact, one that declined into massacres and misery, but is lately recovered. Educated and living in the developed West.

Is there some reason why you don't give the name?

[attofishpi]

Atheists including yourself need to stop plugging that Christianity caused any misery, since any such thing caused by those calling themselves 'Christian' are not adhering to the words of Christ. ...

Don't tell me, tell those who call themselves Christians and cause misery.

Oh ok - could you point out the ones that drive semi-trailers through crowds of innocent people? ..and those that intentionally target children with IEDs?

Religion has been used and will continue to be used by all and sundry to unite peoples of like mind to conduct barbaric acts, impelling that they have some higher authority on their side - atheists included.

Well not sure about the atheists but the theists do have a higher authority upon their side surely? This 'God' of yours. What will you do if your 'sage' ever tells you that your 'God' requires you to do something that you previously thought immoral?

He wouldn't be a sage to do such a thing, nevertheless, I would tell him to fuck off - just like ive told him and 'God' to do countless times already.

[Immanuel Can]

Is there some reason why you don't give the name?

Frankly? Amusement. It's fun to see people guess.

I've been told all sorts of interesting things that are allegedly "clear" about my location and background to people who disagree with me, simply because they have no clue where I'm really coming from or where I've been.

I also find it useful to watch how wide of the mark people can be. They adopt such a high, urbane tone...like, "If you were only as well-informed as I..." or, "If you weren't so provincial, naive and unexperienced as to believe in God..."

For some reason, a lot of them think Theists simply cannot know anything, far less be well-informed people.

I think they imagine we all live in a little box tucked in behind the pot-bellied stove.

Are you from a specific district of London, or another London? (See? Lots of people don't know how many of those there are.)

[attofishpi]

If you've lived in a culture where Islam is given free reign...

I do. It's called London. The proportion of Muslims that mean us harm, is about the same as that of the Catholics who used to blow us up.

uwot - U R serious?? nah ya must be takin the piss.

Simply labeling the IRA Catholics? Comparing them to Muslims ...i've never seen such blatant stupidity from you.

The IRA, as it has been proven could be reasoned with - there was light at the end of the tunnel - with Muslim terrorism it will never end - and since they breed more than the indigenous population ...London and the rest of England is fucked - unless people stop with ridiculous statements like the ones you are making here and wake up...i feel its too late.

It's probably in the same ballpark as the number of pro-lifers that are prepared to commit murder for their beliefs. It is secular law that determines who is a criminal here.

Really? I can't remember the last time it was reported that a pro-lifer drove a truck through a crowd of people attending festivities or children attending a pop concert. In fact, if i am not insane as you clearly are with these statements - i think these 'pro-lifers' direct their killing far less indiscriminately - like perhaps an abortionist doctor. Another RIDICULOUS comparison. WAKE UP STUPID.

[Londoner]

Oh ok - could you point out the ones that drive semi-trailers through crowds of innocent people? ..and those that intentionally target children with IEDs?

There ought be a technical term for this sort of argument, where you request examples but then place artificially narrow stipulations on the sort of answer you would accept.

We can all do it. e.g. Can you point to any examples of Muslim air forces dropping napalm on Vietnamese villages? Can you point out any Buddhists that perpetrated the Sandy Hook massacre?

[attofishpi]

Oh ok - could you point out the ones that drive semi-trailers through crowds of innocent people? ..and those that intentionally target children with IEDs?

There ought be a technical term for this sort of argument, where you request examples but then place artificially narrow stipulations on the sort of answer you would accept.

We can all do it. e.g. Can you point to any examples of Muslim air forces dropping napalm on Vietnamese villages? Can you point out any Buddhists that perpetrated the Sandy Hook massacre?

We are talking about religious ideology being the driving force here dickhead.

[Londoner]

Me: Is there some reason why you don't give the name?

Frankly? Amusement. It's fun to see people guess.

I don't understand. You wrote:

If you've lived in a culture where Islam is given free reign, then believe me, you have a very different perspective on what Islam is and does, and what happens to people when they believe it.

It wasn't clear whether you where writing from personal experience or if this was hearsay. If it was personal experience I would be curious as to which culture you considered represented Islam being given free reign.

That's why I asked. But if you don't want to say, there is no point in my guessing.

Are you from a specific district of London, or another London? (See? Lots of people don't know how many of those there are.)

I have lived most of my life in London (UK) and am currently living in south London. (LB Merton). I have spent a fair amount of time in Muslim countries - as it happens I was born in Cairo (perhaps I should specify Cairo Egypt, not Cairo Illinois), but being very young at the time I cannot claim that gives me any special insight.

[Londoner]

There ought be a technical term for this sort of argument, where you request examples but then place artificially narrow stipulations on the sort of answer you would accept.


We are talking about religious ideology being the driving force here dickhead.

Then why be so specific? Why do examples have to involve 'semi-trailers'?

[attofishpi]

DONT MISQUOTE ME


We are talking about religious ideology being the driving force here dickhead.

Then why be so specific? Why do examples have to involve 'semi-trailers'?

The religious ideology driving force i am talking about here is Islam. Semi-trailers\cars\knives\IEDs etc. used by ISLAMISTS...against CIVILIANS.
Come back when you comprehend logic.