I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Seleucus
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Seleucus »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Muslims had their own magnificent countries that the 'West' has systematically destroyed. Now the 'West' will just have to wait and see if 2 billion muslims will be as aggressive and relentless in enforcing their ideology as kristians have been since its inception.
Unfortunately very few people are well read in Near Eastern and Islamic history either inside or outside the Muslim world.

I would suggest a somewhat different narrative which I will sketch below.

The rise of Islam can be viewed as a secessionist Roman civil war. A continuation of basically the same problems of the 3rd Century crisis. That is, the completion of the conquest of the Mediterranean basin in the time leading up to years 0 provided Rome with enormous wealth, which was eventually spent, (Roman coins flowed out, ending up in Ceylon, Britain, Scandinavia and so on) giving the conquered peoples of the East the opportunity to rebel. Romans, who were tenacious soldiers, conquered Gaul and Palmyra again, re-enriching themselves and allowing the empirical project to continue. The empire was however not self-sufficient, it was exploitative and this did not go unnoticed by the people of the South who paid tribute to the North. It's important to mention that the reason Romans and Greeks were able to conqueror the Near East is because the Asiatic character had become slavish after three-thousand years of subjection to empires: the Akkadians, the Neo-Assyrians, the Seleucids and so on and so on. The effect of imperialism tends always to be the same and the Romans of course also fell victim to the same malaise: slavery, peasantry and elites, mercenary armies, tax farming and the like, this all codified by Diocletian, and all of which degraded the morale of a people who had once been free and responsible for their own livelihood and political decisions.

Much as others who relied on fast moving armies such as the Egyptians with their chariots, the Persians and Macedonians with their horses, the Romans with their legionaries, next came the Arabs on horse and camel. In every case, the locals surrendered to the invaders in preference to the existing imperial force. In every case the invaders' threat was the same: surrender and join us or else die. Alexander, Khalid, Raymond and Godfy, Hulagu or Saladin all followed this same policy in the Near East with the same basic results, none was more merciful or more cruel. This is why Antioch fell to the Moslems first, and then to the Crusaders a few generations later, everyone tended to side with the invader, hoping for freedom, against the imperial occupier.

Islam was initially a movement for unification of the Arab tribes which had previously not been united. Other than looting, and piracy and raiding were the basis of Arab economy, there was no motive for the Arabs to invade the Levantine coast or Persia. Iraq, for instance, had been a Greco-Roman province for one-thousand years at the time of the Arab invasion. The Arabs, like the Macedonians, were a backwards people as compared to the Near East which was the apotheosis of human civilization and had been for almost four-thousand years. Just as Alexander realized this and adopted Persian habits, some Arabs also recognized this and wrote poems of "the gardens guarded by our spears". However, a power struggle emerged, the initial Arab conquest and colonization was challenged by the indigenous peoples, that is, the Egyptians, the Syrians, the Greeks, the Persians and so on. They threw off Arab occupation and influence, this is Muawiyah and the early Umayyads. But the Arabs responded with war, immigration and colonization, and an halting of the rule of converts to Islam being equals, which had been the basis for the initial Pan-Arab movement. Race war exploded and the non-Arabs rebelled, armies from Central Asia marched west, defeated the Arabs and established the Abbasid caliphate. This period became known as the Islamic Golden Age however it had little to do with Islam, the House of Wisdom, the Mutazilites and so on were a resurgence of local people, particularly Persian wisdom and Greek philosophy. This fact is testified to by Arab historian Ibn Khaldun writing at the beginning of the 15th Century and can easily be confirmed by looking at the names and places of the major figures in Islamic science and medicine.

An important series of events then unfolds. The caliph Al Mamun was highly inspired by Greek philosophy and set up an inquisition to root out religiosity. Of course this rationalist inquisition was not well received, he and the following Abbasid caliphs were regarded as elitist heretics by the masses and they were rejected. Islam at this point turned against rationality in preference to dogmatism, the Abbassids crumbled as infighting between Sunni and Shia (Mediterraneans and Semites versus Indo-Aryans) degenerated into the Anarchy at Samarra period. Islam hence forth rejected philosophy and political investigation and only maths, medicine and astronomy continued to advance, since they did not threaten religious dogma.

Al Mamun and his successors had also begun another project which would have negative long term outcomes, that is, the establishment of White slave armies, the Mamluks and Janissaries who were the de facto, or legitimate rulers of Islamic civilization as at Cairo and Delhi, until the end of the Ottoman period. Even the caliph was a foreigner, after the early Abbasid period caliphs didn't marry but bore progeny from their harems of White slaves. This point, about 900 AD, is the beginning of the decline of Islamic civilization and has continued since. Inequality between gender, station, race, degree of manumission, religion, and special statuses lead to demoralization, and together with dogmatism which led to stultification and ignorance, that is the internal cause of the civilization's decline, not outside interference.

The Crusades were a defensive war fought by the Byzantines against the secessionists and invaders of the South or East. The Crusades were successful because of the collapse of unity of the Abbasids leaving Persia involved in a two front war (against Mongol and Mediterranean) and also the Mediterraneans (against Persian and Greco-Latin).

Apart from the brief early Abbasid period, the Golden Age, the remainder of Islamic civilization was essentially funded by pillage of Persia and Byzantium (much as Rome had been funded along the same method a thousand years earlier). The Turks, like the Arabs, were a relatively backwards invader who also lived off raiding and conquest. The Byzantines, who were demoralized for much the same reasons as Islamic civilization, that is, inequality and dogmatism, made easy prey for the Central Asian horsemen. But, like the Arabs before them, and unlike the Romans and Macedonians, the Turks failed to appreciate the civilizational superiority of the people who they were conquering. The final sack of Constantinople funded the Ottomans push into Europe, but a depressed and ignorant culture could only balloon for so long off the booty of pillage and eventually imploded. Contrary to popular belief, the ancient classics did not come to Europe from the Arabs and Muslims, excepting some mathematical and medical texts. At the fall of Constantinople Greek refugees arrived in mass in Italy with their wisdom and texts, igniting the Renaissance.

During the high period of the Roman Republic Hannibal did not dare to attack Rome directly despite three huge Roman defeats right in Italy, some centuries later during the alienated and dogmatic imperial period, they could not defend their capital even from barbarian raiders. Likewise, Islamic civilization did not succumb to outside invaders, it rotted from within as inequality degraded morale and dogmatism stifled intelligence and creativity.
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Greatest I am
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Greatest I am »

Immanuel Can wrote:[
quote="Greatest I am"]
I did not say you did not know who your God was and do not know without a quote just what brought that to your mind.
\
I gave you the quotation. You said,
Greatest I am wrote:The demiurges...
I responded...
Ah. So you believe in multiple "demiurges." Interesting.
And in your reply, you said,
Sure. Because Yahweh and Allah, some connect at the hip. So to speak.
So am I understanding you aright? You think "Yaweh" and "Allah" are real, but are "demiurges." And you think they're pretty much...how did you put it, "connect at the hip"?
First. Thanks for not getting needlessly upset.

I do not think Allah and Yahweh to be real. They are both mythical to me and have no basis in reality. Gnostic Christian beliefs do not have a supernatural content. Muslims believe that Allah and Yahweh are the same God and that is why I call both demiurges. That term was originally created for Yahweh as Allah had yet to be invented but I think I am correct in putting both under the save vile name as neither are good Gods.
If that's what you think, you're saying to Christians, Jews and Muslims, "Your gods are really demiurges. We Gnostics know that, but you don't. And they are not to be worshipped. They're both bad, and they're connected at the hip."
Yes. Muslims will not likely care and Christians know the term well enough to hate us who use it.
If that's what you meant, then of course it would be an imperious claim that, because of your esoteric knowledge, you know better than Jews, Muslims and Christians what their beliefs really entail. Isn't that the gist of it?
No.

I recognize that all idol worshipers have some kind of mental picture of God and that they too varied for me to bother trying to split the hairs. That picture or mental construct is what is idolized.

That is why I speak on moral issues and not on issues of God's existence as that is a waste of time.

Religions should be judged on their moral values and not on other understandings of their, to me, imaginary Gods. I cannot care if a God exists as it is my duty to judge all the Gods as a part of my perpetual seeking after excellence. Even after my apotheosis, I set aside the new information gained, raise my bar of excellence and sought anew so as not to idol worship my own mental construct of what I found.
That's what the words you wrote seem to me to be alleging. If you meant something else, then please do the Gnostic thing and "enlighten" me to the contrary. :wink:
[/quote]

I gave what I could and can always clarify.

Regards
DL
Last edited by Greatest I am on Tue May 16, 2017 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Greatest I am
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Greatest I am »

Seleucus wrote:[ Islamic civilization did not succumb to outside invaders, it rotted from within as inequality degraded morale and dogmatism stifled intelligence and creativity.
Sniped for brevity but well done.

I just wanted to add what I might use as an O.P. It is a take off on your last.

Please do not expect your eloquence but please opine, briefly if you like, on it.

------------------------

The intellectual collapse of Islam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl1nJC3lvFs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAPKYKhTp8U

There is some duplication here so please start this one at the 5 min. mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCxrL9-C84

Given that the vast majority of scientists and intelligentsia are not believers in supernatural Gods, is it possible that such beliefs actually hurt those who believe in the supernatural, witchcraft and fantastic entities of all types?

I ask you this not just for Islam, as having dealt with a lot Christian believers, I think they might also be subject to what Islam has subjected itself to.

Regards
DL
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Immanuel Can
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Immanuel Can »

Greatest I am wrote:First. Thanks for not getting needlessly upset.
You're welcome. I don't really tend to get upset here. You can count on that: if I take exception to something, it will be an intellectual, not emotional objection. I'm not emotionally invested, because people here don't really know each other.
I do not think Allah and Yahweh to be real. They are both mythical to me and have no basis in reality.

I see.
Gnostic Christian beliefs do not have a supernatural content.
If they don't, then they can't be "Christian." They can just be Gnostic.
Muslims believe that Allah and Yahweh are the same God and that is why I call both demiurges.
Muslims are obviously incorrect. And they know it. For they allege that Jewish and Christian Scriptures are so "corrupt" that they cannot be trusted. So even though they talk about it being "the same god," Allah is not the God of Jews and Christians. And if you observe how Muslims in Islamic countries actually treat Jews and Christians, you'll see this acted out very clearly. They know: they just say they're the "same" for purposes of ingratiating themselves to the West. But watch what they do when they rule...
Greatest I am wrote:
If that's what you think, you're saying to Christians, Jews and Muslims, "Your gods are really demiurges. We Gnostics know that, but you don't. And they are not to be worshipped. They're both bad, and they're connected at the hip."
Yes. Muslims will not likely care and Christians know the term well enough to hate us who use it.
We don't "hate" Gnostics. We just don't agree with Gnostics. It's not at all the same thing. Christians are commanded to love their enemies, and to pray for them, even if those enemies abuse Christians. That means they have enemies. But it means they don't hate them.
Greatest I am wrote:
I wrote: If that's what you meant, then of course it would be an imperious claim that, because of your esoteric knowledge, you know better than Jews, Muslims and Christians what their beliefs really entail. Isn't that the gist of it?
No.

I recognize that all idol worshipers have some kind of mental picture of God and that they too varied for me to bother trying to split the hairs. That picture or mental construct is what is idolized.
Well, you may consider it "splitting hairs," but saying to Muslims, Jews and Christians that they are all deluded about God is hardly "splitting hairs" to any of them. And it is just as I said: Gnostics think they know (i.e. have gnosis of) the truth behind other people's beliefs, and that the Gnostic interpretation is correct.
That is why I speak on moral issues and not on issues of God's existence as that is a waste of time.
And yet, you still have no account of the "best" we should all be pursuing. I notice you dropped that.
...my perpetual seeking after excellence.
Define "excellence." "Excellence" in what specific regards? How will I know "excellence" when I see it? What will you "excel" in?
Even after my apotheosis,
So you believe you made it to "godhood"? :shock:
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Greatest I am »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 3:01 pm [
quote="Greatest I am"]First. Thanks for not getting needlessly upset.
You're welcome. I don't really tend to get upset here. You can count on that: if I take exception to something, it will be an intellectual, not emotional objection. I'm not emotionally invested, because people here don't really know each other.
I do not think Allah and Yahweh to be real. They are both mythical to me and have no basis in reality.

I see.
Gnostic Christian beliefs do not have a supernatural content.
If they don't, then they can't be "Christian." They can just be Gnostic.
I guess history is wrong then. Wiki seems to disagree with you.
Muslims believe that Allah and Yahweh are the same God and that is why I call both demiurges.
Muslims are obviously incorrect. And they know it.
I agree.
For they allege that Jewish and Christian Scriptures are so "corrupt" that they cannot be trusted. So even though they talk about it being "the same god," Allah is not the God of Jews and Christians. And if you observe how Muslims in Islamic countries actually treat Jews and Christians, you'll see this acted out very clearly. They know: they just say they're the "same" for purposes of ingratiating themselves to the West. But watch what they do when they rule...
There are many flavors of Muslims these days and some think as you say, on the right of the spectrum while other take the other wing.
Greatest I am wrote:
If that's what you think, you're saying to Christians, Jews and Muslims, "Your gods are really demiurges. We Gnostics know that, but you don't. And they are not to be worshipped. They're both bad, and they're connected at the hip."
Yes.
Yes. Muslims will not likely care and Christians know the term well enough to hate us who use it.
We don't "hate" Gnostics. We just don't agree with Gnostics. It's not at all the same thing. Christians are commanded to love their enemies, and to pray for them, even if those enemies abuse Christians. That means they have enemies. But it means they don't hate them.
To not hate those that hate you is not reciprocity and reciprocity is fair play.
Greatest I am wrote:
I wrote: If that's what you meant, then of course it would be an imperious claim that, because of your esoteric knowledge, you know better than Jews, Muslims and Christians what their beliefs really entail. Isn't that the gist of it?
No.

I recognize that all idol worshipers have some kind of mental picture of God and that they too varied for me to bother trying to split the hairs. That picture or mental construct is what is idolized.
Well, you may consider it "splitting hairs," but saying to Muslims, Jews and Christians that they are all deluded about God is hardly "splitting hairs" to any of them. And it is just as I said: Gnostics think they know (i.e. have gnosis of) the truth behind other people's beliefs, and that the Gnostic interpretation is correct.
That is why I speak on moral issues and not on issues of God's existence as that is a waste of time.
And yet, you still have no account of the "best" we should all be pursuing. I notice you dropped that.
...my perpetual seeking after excellence.
Define "excellence." "Excellence" in what specific regards? How will I know "excellence" when I see it? What will you "excel" in?
Excellence, like most of those classifications, like morals, are mostly all subjective. My view of excellence might not look like yours. My view of the ideal might also not look like yours. Consensus on the issues is all we can try to get to. Without a specific issue, I cannot gain consensus or know exactly what we are discussing.
Even after my apotheosis,
So you believe you made it to "godhood"? :shock:
[/quote]

Indeed. That is what happens when you gain a Christ mind. I am a WIP, (work in progress). though. No instant gratification as apotheosis just shows that one is beginning to climb Jacobs ladder.

It does not show which rung one is on. I only shows that one has begun the climb.

Note how Jesus shows this rebirth, (a poor term) happens.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Jesus was an enlightened man and that is all we can ever be.

Regards
DL
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Immanuel Can
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Immanuel Can »

Greatest I am wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 3:53 pm
I guess history is wrong then. Wiki seems to disagree with you.
Well, THAT account of history is certainly wrong. That much we can safely say.

There are many flavors of Muslims these days and some think as you say, on the right of the spectrum while other take the other wing.
Of whom do you speak?
To not hate those that hate you is not reciprocity and reciprocity is fair play.
Not for a Christian. As Christ said, "Do not return evil for evil."
Excellence, like most of those classifications, like morals, are mostly all subjective. My view of excellence might not look like yours. My view of the ideal might also not look like yours. Consensus on the issues is all we can try to get to. Without a specific issue, I cannot gain consensus or know exactly what we are discussing.
Well, you said you were striving for excellence in everything. I was just asking what you thought the word you used referred to.
Note how Jesus shows this rebirth, (a poor term) happens.
Actually, it was His term. See John 3.
Jesus was an enlightened man and that is all we can ever be.
For a mere "enlightened man" to say the things Jesus Christ said would be blasphemy according to Islam, and was hotly resented by the contemporary Jews of his day. But take what he said seriously, and you can't see him as merely an "enlightened man." He was either speaking falsehood, speaking lunacy, or speaking the truth.

But "enlightened man"? That interpretation is beyond any reasonable reading of his words.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Justintruth »

Seleucus wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 2:45 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Muslims had their own magnificent countries that the 'West' has systematically destroyed. Now the 'West' will just have to wait and see if 2 billion muslims will be as aggressive and relentless in enforcing their ideology as kristians have been since its inception.
Unfortunately very few people are well read in Near Eastern and Islamic history either inside or outside the Muslim world.
....
Great post. Thx. I enjoyed reading it very much and intend to re-read it several more times.

It is interesting how religion plays out in history. The political elites control, through arms in the end, the situation so the story is about them and the story of the competition between them. But in order to conserve their arms for direct threat, and in order to mobilize populations for service in the economy and military, they tend to use religious means as well as others, to obtain compliance and prevent rebellion. Religion seems to always be used that way. Secularism is not technically a religion but still many of the trappings and techniques are used even in secular systems. Stalin, for example, was very aware of the need to replace certain fetishistic religious practices and not just do away with religion-like idolatry so he consciously set up some of the trappings in his personality cult. My understanding is that he trained in a seminary. In the USA we have a lot of the trappings "In God we trust", the congressional prayer breakfasts, chaplains as part of our military etc. "God and country". A whole PHD could be obtained just studying the neurological effect of flags - not just national ones but the "banners" used so shamelessly by the militaries.

Thus these aggregate power systems are characterized and tagged - named - religiously. "Christendom" "The Islamic world" etc. Basically the tags index what religion the power elites use to influence and motivate their populations so as to strengthen the military might available to them and conserve its use for threats from "outside". But the uses of religions are actually religious only superficially. You can't confuse the soap salesmen with the soap. The ecumenical efforts between the religious are more religious that the action of the political elites and the conflicts tend to be worked out in discussion - perhaps heated in some cases - but restrained in key ways usually. (Ok, I get it, killing someone over the idea of "0" etc does occur)

But there are a couple of other stores inside of the political/social dimensions of religion. The first is the intellectual religious traditions. How they function and what they mean and how religious motivations play in the minds of political leaders. The religions perform the function they do in each culture in basically the same way. It is fetish to a large extent but fetish that illuminates the meaning of the lives of the devotees and provides them with an experience of their existence which activates ecstatic experiences in their brains and provides experiences that they are motivated to have again, and that, at least in their minds and possibly correctly, provides understanding. How it does that in the human organism needs to be understood carefully.

This religious dimension, that taps the sexual systems in the people experiencing, has reproductive and social arms. So the same systems are motivated to define and defend "us" from "them". Religion is used there also to define and separate us from them. All of this should be understood as primate biology and be seen in terms of behaviorism as a property of the human species. It is how the survival instinct is overcome in a soldier to produce the behavior required to defend one primate "tribe" from the other. Else they would be conquered and so it is evolutionary. Religion is not the only way, hey there are battles between even Catholic countries, but often religion is used to separate and define the enemy.

Another story that needs to be told is the story of monasticism. Throughout these cultures some remove themselves and practice their religions in order to more directly experience the cognitive aspects of religion - to experience God in prayer etc. Understanding that behavior is also necessary.

One of the things Islam has is a curious absence of monastic tradition.

http://www.techofheart.co/2010/01/why-t ... islam.html

...but there are monastic traditions in many of the other systems and monastic like behavior in Islam.

So while narratives like you described in your post are critical to understanding there are sub-stories of how religion functions within these cultures and what religion itself is all about, how it relates to biology, ontology, metaphysics, language, and mind, and how it thus is able to create and influence social systems and be then used by the political elites. You can't just tell the story of the political elites struggles against each other.

The story of "Near Eastern and Islamic history either inside or outside the Muslim world" includes the history of the religions inside the cultures, how they function, how they contribute to ideology and, of course, how the power elite exploits them and uses them to motivate the pawns in their systems. In fact they often constrain the possible actions of the elites - either they profess certain things and make certain genuflections or they are out. Try to imagine the problem a genuine Islamic would have becoming elected in the US, or the problem a Chinese governor of Jakarta can have becoming head of Indonesia.

You can see the effect in the history of these posts. Many individuals -primates that they are - are just so captivated by the propaganda on their side of the fence and so un-influenced by the propaganda on the other side.

The dehumanizing of the "other" side and the de-valuing of the lives of those individuals on the "other" side relative to those of "our own" is critical in order to create the motivations required in "our heroic soldiers".

While it is possible that one could compare the "others" to "ourselves" accurately and describe what is good and bad on each side that is very rarely done and I think the reason is we are biologically programed to some extent against it. Who has the same feeling looking at the other guys flag instead of your own? It takes real study and reflection to understand the effect of that primate biology on your own mind, to see how it is working and where it is distorting reality and getting you ready to participate in a political struggle.

Check out this guy. He has some interesting stuff and a pretty broad background:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Esposito

We must do that and to do that we must understand how religions, and the other primate subsystems work inherently as well as understanding how they are exploited by political elites and the history of their struggles to control land.

Else we cannot escape this nightmare with the relatively safe nuclear nightmare more or less center stage right now and the more horrible biological one waiting just in the wing for its cue.

I think that right now we don't need political action half as much as we need academic understanding of the situation. But where are the universities? Why is there no study and consensus emerging? Is the political control so strong that it has suppressed the universities?
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Seleucus
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Seleucus »

Justintruth post wrote:Another story that needs to be told is the story of monasticism.
There is something wrong with the forum, it isn't displaying properly.

Yes, I've looked into this issue of monasticism too. One comment I have is that Muhammad himself came to enlightenment after spending long periods alone in a cave in the desert in silence. By contrast, popular prayer, five times a day, takes about five minutes, is accompanied by a great deal of megaphones blaring, and is done in mass. Muhammad's practice is effectively barred to his followers.

There should be noted to be a difference between drawing inspiration from, and following dogmatically. The fact that Muhammad said such and such should never be taken as more than a consideration to weigh, which is not how mainstream religion or dogmatic salafist Islamists look at it. A Course in Miracles also advises to live a spiritually inspired life without giving up a life in the world, but I doubt anyone who follows the Course seriously believes Helen Schucman is an infallible prophet.

If I went back in time I would have added a few words on Sufism, which is what became of those people of character who relalized their spirituality and wisdom couldn't have any part in the religious political Islam that eventually took root and "turned on, tuned in, dropped out" . Someone like al-Ghazali being the epitome of a corrupted philosopher who used rational method in the service of dogmatism (sort of like scholasticism in the Christian world).

The other thing I should have mentioned was sura 18:83-110 in which Muhammad admonished readers of the importance of the iron walls built by Alexander (actually the Sassanids) to keep out Gog and Magog, i.e. nomadic peoples. In deed, Mongols and then Turks destroyed Middle-Eastern civilization just as had been forewarned.
Justintruth wrote:or the problem a Chinese governor of Jakarta can have becoming head of Indonesia.
He was removed from office and is now in prison for insulting imams! For those who don't know, Ahok, governor of Jakarta ran for re-election (actually he was the former vice-governor who took power when the the original governor, Jokowi, ran for president and won). At a speech he said that verse 5:51, which reads, 'do not take Christians and Jews as friends', should not be construed to mean Muslim voters shouldn't elect him and those who interpret the verse that way are lying. For which he was charged with a number of blasphemy related charges and found guilty, being sentenced to two years in prison. The implication being that Indonesia, often called a moderate Muslim country is sliding rapidly into Islamic dictatorship. This would have been obvious for years to anyone following events in Indonesia. His rival, supported by Islamist parties won the election. What happens in Jakarta is regarded a harbinger for things to come across the country.
Justintruth wrote:Many individuals -primates that they are - are just so captivated by the propaganda on their side of the fence and so un-influenced by the propaganda on the other side.
I would add to that that many Islamaphobes are not well aware of some of the worst things about Islam: the incessant blaring of mosques, female genital mutilation, or animal sacrifice to name a few things apparently unbeknownst to most critics.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Greatest I am »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 10:08 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Tue May 16, 2017 3:53 pm
I guess history is wrong then. Wiki seems to disagree with you.
Well, THAT account of history is certainly wrong. That much we can safely say.

There are many flavors of Muslims these days and some think as you say, on the right of the spectrum while other take the other wing.
Of whom do you speak?


As stated, Muslims.
To not hate those that hate you is not reciprocity and reciprocity is fair play.
Not for a Christian. As Christ said, "Do not return evil for evil."
When have Christians ever paid attention to what Christ said? During their many Inquisitions and religious wars?
Excellence, like most of those classifications, like morals, are mostly all subjective. My view of excellence might not look like yours. My view of the ideal might also not look like yours. Consensus on the issues is all we can try to get to. Without a specific issue, I cannot gain consensus or know exactly what we are discussing.
Well, you said you were striving for excellence in everything. I was just asking what you thought the word you used referred to.
The best of all possible laws and rules to live by is a good start. Morals, ethics, theology, philosophy, etc.
Note how Jesus shows this rebirth, (a poor term) happens.
Actually, it was His term. See John 3.
All the biblical characters are fiction and I take the information where I can find it.
Jesus was an enlightened man and that is all we can ever be.
For a mere "enlightened man" to say the things Jesus Christ said would be blasphemy according to Islam, and was hotly resented by the contemporary Jews of his day. But take what he said seriously, and you can't see him as merely an "enlightened man." He was either speaking falsehood, speaking lunacy, or speaking the truth.
The quote you put above is a part of that lunacy. One should not reward evil. falsehood and truth are by themselves impossible to evaluate without knowing the context but I do agree that there are both in scriptures.
But "enlightened man"? That interpretation is beyond any reasonable reading of his words.
Not to me when he is indicating where God lives within us and many sages of many traditions agree. Perhaps even the Vatican.

Their largest sculpture is that of our pineal gland and their painting of creation shows God sitting on the backdrop of our right hemisphere of our brains. A take off on the Egyptian Eye.

When one ties that to the fact that the Jewish myth was plagiarized from Sumer and Egypt, the logic trail looks quite apparent. No?

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DL
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Greatest I am
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

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Justintruth wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 2:29 am
I think that right now we don't need political action half as much as we need academic understanding of the situation. But where are the universities? Why is there no study and consensus emerging? Is the political control so strong that it has suppressed the universities?
Political action is needed to create the debates of the various religious ideologies but the Governments have been using the Noble Lie that the mainstream religions are worthy of us for so long they do not want to admit that both Christianity and Islam have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions that grew themselves by the sword instead of good deeds.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I.

While the Noble Lie stands, the general public will have to continue to suffer those odious immoral religions.

What a waste of tax dollars, that even atheist have to pay, to cover the tax shortfall thanks to religious tax exemptions.

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DL
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

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Greatest I am wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 2:22 am

Not to me when he is indicating where God lives within us and many sages of many traditions agree. Perhaps even the Vatican.
If the Vatican agrees with something, you can generally count on it being wrong. :D
When one ties that to the fact that the Jewish myth was plagiarized from Sumer and Egypt, the logic trail looks quite apparent. No?
Correspondence isn't causality. Even if it were true, that two things "look alike" does not tell you one was the originator of the other. That's not logic.

The apparent similarities could be caused by a third thing we have not yet identified, or the earlier thing could be an attempt to replicate the thing of which we only have a later copy. It's never possible to be sure of that.

More importantly, arguments that compare, say, Egyptian mythology to Jewish Monotheism are pretty thin. They maximize the resemblances, but overlook the differences, which are so huge as to be definitive. The Gods of Egypt are polytheistic, hence not absolute or singular. Monotheism is an overwhelming, unanticipated, amazing departure from such a tradition...essentially a denial of the values that were central to Egyptian religiosity. The implicit denial of the deity of Pharaoh...well, you couldn't get less "Egyptian" than that!

However, you will recall that Hebrews lived in Egypt...thus it would be utterly unsurprising if Egyptians attempted to adopt, or were influenced by those elements of Hebrew religion that were attractive to the Egyptian mindset. It would be more remarkable if there were NO crossovers between Egyptian mythology and Hebrew theology. That would be truly unexpected.

I think it's a mistake to say that all ancient traditions were wrong on every point. Surely some of them were wildly wrong, some were less wrong, some were attempts to "get things right" but missed in some way(s)...and arguably, something was also right. So various ancient traditions could be attempts to represent a prior truth, but attempts that also were, in some ways, fall-short measures or distortions of a better idea.

One thing's certain: similarity does not logically argue sufficiently to make the case for derivation.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 3:13 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 2:22 am

Not to me when he is indicating where God lives within us and many sages of many traditions agree. Perhaps even the Vatican.
If the Vatican agrees with something, you can generally count on it being wrong. :D
When one ties that to the fact that the Jewish myth was plagiarized from Sumer and Egypt, the logic trail looks quite apparent. No?
Correspondence isn't causality. Even if it were true, that two things "look alike" does not tell you one was the originator of the other. That's not logic.

The apparent similarities could be caused by a third thing we have not yet identified, or the earlier thing could be an attempt to replicate the thing of which we only have a later copy. It's never possible to be sure of that.

More importantly, arguments that compare, say, Egyptian mythology to Jewish Monotheism are pretty thin. They maximize the resemblances, but overlook the differences, which are so huge as to be definitive. The Gods of Egypt are polytheistic, hence not absolute or singular. Monotheism is an overwhelming, unanticipated, amazing departure from such a tradition...essentially a denial of the values that were central to Egyptian religiosity. The implicit denial of the deity of Pharaoh...well, you couldn't get less "Egyptian" than that!

However, you will recall that Hebrews lived in Egypt...thus it would be utterly unsurprising if Egyptians attempted to adopt, or were influenced by those elements of Hebrew religion that were attractive to the Egyptian mindset. It would be more remarkable if there were NO crossovers between Egyptian mythology and Hebrew theology. That would be truly unexpected.

I think it's a mistake to say that all ancient traditions were wrong on every point. Surely some of them were wildly wrong, some were less wrong, some were attempts to "get things right" but missed in some way(s)...and arguably, something was also right. So various ancient traditions could be attempts to represent a prior truth, but attempts that also were, in some ways, fall-short measures or distortions of a better idea.

One thing's certain: similarity does not logically argue sufficiently to make the case for derivation.
True, but note the similarities that do point to the notion of derivation in all the old made up stories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLVpTQJqijU

I also do not see Christianity as a monotheistic religion thanks to it's three headed Gods who are not even considered equal which indicates monotheism.

If Constantine had not forced Christianity to adopt that stupid trinity concept, who knows what kind of God Christianity would have come up with.

Strange how they say that God unknowable and unfathomable just before reaming off all that they know and fathom of God. Lies or idiocy. Your choice.

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DL
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Immanuel Can
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Immanuel Can »

Greatest I am wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 3:35 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 18, 2017 3:13 pm
One thing's certain: similarity does not logically argue sufficiently to make the case for derivation.
True, but note the similarities that do point to the notion of derivation in all the old made up stories.
Well, two things: firstly, we don't know we have "derivation," and secondly, we don't know we have anything "made up." For example, many ancient traditions have some sort of a Deluge narrative. That could mean they copied a single source. Or it could mean they copied each other. Or it could mean something really happened to all of them. There's no way to be certain, in that case. It was too long ago.
I also do not see Christianity as a monotheistic religion thanks to it's three headed Gods who are not even considered equal which indicates monotheism.
I surmise you're either attempting to be mean-spirited and mock, or perhaps that you are just very, very misinformed about Christian beliefs, and actually think you're saying something relevant.

Or both.

In charity, I'll assume the second of the three possibilities.
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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

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I am quite well informed in Christian beliefs right from the far left spectrum to the far right spectrum.

If you wish to be specific of what information I can be corrected on, please give it.

"There's no way to be certain, in that case. It was too long ago."

Exactly what all the idol worshipers have to learn and accept.

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Re: I am an Islamophobe. If you are not, you might not be a moral person.

Post by Justintruth »

Seleucus wrote: Wed May 17, 2017 6:26 am ....Indonesia, often called a moderate Muslim country is sliding rapidly into Islamic dictatorship. This would have been obvious for years to anyone following events in Indonesia. His rival, supported by Islamist parties won the election. What happens in Jakarta is regarded a harbinger for things to come ...
There are a lot of Indonesian's trying to stop it from doing what you are saying... but it's dicey.

I believe that somehow we need to target within the religions and within the countries those who are causing this global shift we are seeing.

It might seem counterintuitive but the whole thing with the rise of political religious Christianity - the new right - is just the American form of those who are using Islam in Indonesia to promote authoritarian identity politics.

The movements are linked in some sense. In a way it seems to be that liberalism tends toward global civil society where the conservatives seem to want factional breakdown on both national and religious basis and demonize the rest.

I just went through the Spanish civil war (superficially - I am not a scholar like you seem to be) but you could clearly see the same issues there over and over. I think it's some kind of primate instinct to coalesce and rally - seize resources and patrol boundaries.

Can't the scholars in universities come up with some "ism"that we could rally around to stop all of this? Certainly attacking Islam and not the speciic elements in it that are destructive is not the answer.

You seem unusually smart or at least unusually informed historically. What is the way out of this constant level of conflicts? What political structure would work given the realities and variations of primate behavior and how to we begin to get there.

I'd be glad to pitch in but there just doesn't seem like there is an exit strategy around wich people are rallying. Do you know of anyone of quality working in the universities to let light the way forward?
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