Londoner wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 10:17 amIf Indonesia is becoming more Muslim I do not see that as a threat as such.
For myself I see it as a tragedy, I have sketched my timeline of Islamic history here, I hope you will have looked at it,
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22054&start=90#p312870
As you see, I have presented a narrative in which dogmatism, superstition and inequality saps the morale of the people, degrading the Near East from the apotheosis of human civilization to a war zone of ignorance and poverty. I'm open to hearing other narratives of Islamic civilization should you care to present one...
Londoner wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 10:17 ambad news for non-Muslims in that country, and I regret that on principle
Bad news for Muslims too. Due to apostasy laws it is virtually impossible to get Muslim off your documents once it is on. For example, in one state in Malaysia in 2005 where conversion of Muslims is permitted, Negeri Sembilan, (Muslims in Malaysia are under Sharia law), 1000 petitioned, only 60 requests were granted. Apostacy is penalized in almost all other states with fines and years of imprisonment being the penalty. Take the not unusual case of Lina Joy who petitioned to convert from Islam to Hinuism and married a Hindu, (marriage across religious lines is barred by Islamic miscegenation laws), her marriage was annulled and she was jailed. Just to drive this home: I have "Muslim" on my documents.
Londoner wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 10:17 amI think the article was spoilt by the inclusion of the bare sentence:
The genocide of the 1960s was Muslim perpetrated.
Facts can be inconvenient to the stories we tell ourselves:
Genocidal massacres were committed by Muslim vigilante groups (Lee, 2013), supported by the largest Muslim organization in the country, Nahdlatul Ulama (Adam, 2015).
Lee, M.B.P. (2013).
Genocide of Non-Muslims in Indonesia.
Adam, Asvi Warman. (2015).
How Indonesia’s 1965-1966 anti-communist purge remade a nation and the world.
Londoner wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 10:17 amThe article conclude with what I think is the key:
While influence from Saudi Arabia did kick-start Islamism in the 1800s in Indonesia, Anies sees today's Islamism as a homegrown phenomena fertilized by the hopeless poverty of the Muslim majority.
That is my position. If you have societies where there is poverty and hopelessness you will get inter-communal violence, repressive dictatorships and all the rest.
"The article"? I wrote that, for you.
But we don't too often see impoverished Thai Buddhists blowing anyone up, nor are the atheist poor of Moldova, and so on. As Sam Harris points out, there are no Jain or Amish terrorists. It's something about Islamic culture and dogma.
A philosopher, a free-thinker, opposes all dogma right? Communist, PC, Islamism, they are all contemptible. So why are you defending Islamic culture when you wouldn't defend any other dogmatic and oppressive order?
If I said, "most Nazis are anti-Semitic" that would be obvious, but if I say "the overwhelming majority of Muslims are anti-Semitic" then the leftist response is a pivot to: "oh Americans are also anti-Semitic, and so are Koreans, and so was Dylan Roof, in fact it is the tragedy of poverty and American world domination" and such mumbo jumbo.
I'm not saying Islam doesn't have anything of worth in it, I consider myself relatively well read in Islamic religious text, philosophy, poetry and history. The problem is the culture. Lot's of people can take the Qur'an, as Sufis do, and read it as a metaphor for enlightenment. But when what is today Muslim culture picks up the Qur'an, it gets read in very destructive ways. We know that this dogmatic and dangerous culture is in fact the mainstream majority of Muslims; first of all if we live in Muslim society it is obvious, but for those who don't, Pew Research's 2013 report on attitudes demonstrates it, the full document is easy to find online and is titled "The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society".
Londoner wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 10:17 amSo when you write of 'Muslim suicide attacks', what is meant to be the distinctive factor...?
Islam of course.
Londoner wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2017 10:17 amSome people get into a mental state where they are prepared both to die and to kill others, including the innocent.
Yes. We acknowledge most child molesters are male. Therefore we take certain precautions, we analyzing and critique the male culture and look for the beliefs that legitimize molestation, we don't let any man just volunteer for Big Brothers, we interview him first, we check out his past to make sure he isn't a molester. The same with Muslims, we acknowledge most terrorists are Muslim. Therefore we take certain precautions, we analyzing and critique the Muslim culture and look for the beliefs that legitimize terrorism, we don't let any Muslim enter America, we interview him first, we check out his past to make sure he isn't a terrorist.
I'm just about to sit down with a gin and tonic in celebration of the second night of Ramadan and to help drown out the blaring of the Mosques while I read an article on von Humboldt and ethno-linguistic nationalism and another oldie but I hope goodie,
The Religious Attitudes of the Indo-Europeans, I anticipate these will help to inspire me about your very excellent question above regarding what is Western Civilization. Certainly the most relevant question for us here is, Is Islam a part of Western Civilization? Catch you up soon!