When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Trajk Logik
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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Trajk Logik » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:34 pm

Necromancer wrote:When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy? I have this worry about Atheists that when they form states they tend to be like Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and others, not really that cool! So what is it about Atheism and statehood? Are they capable to maintain human rights and stay away from "hidden laws" to promote this special equality among the proletariate?

I think I trust the Christians and other religious people most. They seem to accomplish statehood in a better fashion.

What about you? What is your stance? Your thoughts about this worry?



:D
I guess you've never heard of the term, "Theocracy"? This is where countries are ruled by their religion. There are plenty of Muslim countries that fit this and I would argue they don't hold a candle to what we have in the US. Christian theocracies would include some countries in South America, which again can't compare to what we have in the U.S.

The U.S isn't a theocracy. It is a secular country. People are allowed to believe what they want as long as they don't bring their religion into the argument, or use it to promote the control of others, which believers seem to have a hard time not doing. When you use your religion as a basis for making new laws, then others have the right to question your beliefs and be critical of them.

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Harbal
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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Harbal » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:39 pm

Trajk Logik wrote: The U.S isn't a theocracy. It is a secular country.
No presidential candidate with a serious hope of winning would dare to admit not believing in God.

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Trajk Logik
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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Trajk Logik » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:55 am

Harbal wrote:
Trajk Logik wrote: The U.S isn't a theocracy. It is a secular country.
No presidential candidate with a serious hope of winning would dare to admit not believing in God.
That doesn't necessarily mean that they believe it. They're just trying to get elected. And just because most people still believe doesn't mean it's true. Several hundred years ago, when most people believed the Earth was flat and at the center of the universe, did that make it true?

This is typical of most believers. Because the existence of God isn't obvious all the time, most people tend to forget their own beliefs and behave as hypocrites. They don't behave as if an omnipotent judge were watching their every action and every thought every moment.

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Harbal
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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Harbal » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:56 am

Trajk Logik wrote:
Harbal wrote: No presidential candidate with a serious hope of winning would dare to admit not believing in God.
That doesn't necessarily mean that they believe it. They're just trying to get elected.
That's my point: Why does a secular society require it's leaders to believe in God?

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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:00 am

Harbal wrote:To many, the word "atheist" implies anti God and anti religion. Is there a word for someone who doesn't have a god to believe in and has no religion but doesn't mind others having these things, as long as they don't do any harm to anyone else?
Agnostic

PhilX

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Greatest I am
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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Greatest I am » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:31 pm

Necromancer wrote:When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy? I have this worry about Atheists that when they form states they tend to be like Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea and others, not really that cool! So what is it about Atheism and statehood? Are they capable to maintain human rights and stay away from "hidden laws" to promote this special equality among the proletariate?

I think I trust the Christians and other religious people most. They seem to accomplish statehood in a better fashion.

What about you? What is your stance? Your thoughts about this worry?



:D
Yours is a strange view since the less religion one has in a country, the more peaceful it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdtwTeBPYQA

Further. The morals and ethics of the lesser religious nations seems to be a lot better than where there is a lot of religious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94f2h-5 ... r_embedded

Theists love Gods who run tyrannies and not democracies and it shows by their intolerant and immoral ways.

Regards
DL

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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by osgart » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:08 am

religion wants to be God of the state and atheists want to be God's themselves . if freedom wasn't so good we would have a civil war right now. a true democracy wouldn't be about citizens attacking people for their convictions and beliefs. yet religion and atheism are both about conforming and submitting which is evil. true democracy doesn't infringe upon free thinking citizens. atheism and religion movements are currently both guilty of socialist oppression. the day a religion and atheism decides that people are only to be judged on their conscience towards all regardless of their beliefs and convictions than we will have a civil democracy.

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Greatest I am
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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Greatest I am » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:34 pm

osgart wrote:religion wants to be God of the state and atheists want to be God's themselves . if freedom wasn't so good we would have a civil war right now. a true democracy wouldn't be about citizens attacking people for their convictions and beliefs. yet religion and atheism are both about conforming and submitting which is evil. true democracy doesn't infringe upon free thinking citizens. atheism and religion movements are currently both guilty of socialist oppression. the day a religion and atheism decides that people are only to be judged on their conscience towards all regardless of their beliefs and convictions than we will have a civil democracy.
Of course everybody wants to rule the world. That is something I see as normal. Don't you?

"democracy wouldn't be about citizens attacking people for their convictions and beliefs."

Why would you want to stifle discourse?

If the various types of people and systems we follow, be it political or religious, never get a chance to talk of their system of belief through lack of discourse, how would we ever find the best system?

What if one of those religions or political systems, or a part of it is really poor, should we not want to know about it?

Regards
DL

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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Science Fan » Mon May 29, 2017 5:23 pm

This post ignores a great deal of history. Just take a look at the history of the USA. A common historical myth is that the pilgrims came to America to avoid religious persecution in Europe, and did so by establishing a nation that gave everyone religious freedom. The actual historical facts are dramatically different. After fleeing persecution in Europe, the pilgrims oppressed other religious people.

What people typically fail to distinguish is the federal government from the state governments. Although the federal government was free from religion, a secular government, the original 13 state governments were all religious theocracies. In the early days of the American republic, most people thought of themselves as a citizen of a particular state, and only secondarily, if they thought about it at all, as a citizen of the USA. The state governments were more influential over a person's life than the federal government was at the time the nation was founded.

Every state was based on a Christian theocracy, with 6 of the original states even having public financing of their respective state churches. All of the states discriminated against religious minorities, even Christian minorities, and definitely against Muslims, Jews, agnostics and atheists. Freedom of speech was outlawed in these states, and people did get sent to prison for committing the crime of "blasphemy." It was not until the late 1940s that the US Supreme Court applied the First Amendment to the states through the 14th Amendment.

So, historically, in the USA, when Christians ruled, they denied citizenship to all people of color, they denied the right to vote for women, they even excluded poor white men from being able to vote. In addition, they denied religious minorities the right to hold state public office, and even banned agnostics and atheists from being able to testify in court --- even on their own behalf.

Over and over again, the freethinker movement in the USA, primarily made-up of atheists and agnostics, was at the forefront in the battle of extending rights to minorities. They were influential in providing equal rights to colored people, poor people, women, and even today, have largely led the fight for gay rights.

The USA is a perfect example of atheists ensuring greater civil liberties to minorities than a Christian majority, which, when it held power, engaged in outright persecution against others. The Christian right today, in the USA, represents the people who want to go back to the time when Christians were able to persecute non-Christians. There would be no Christian right in the USA if the nation allowed religious freedom from the beginning. These people did not just pop into existence out of a vacuum. Their presence, and political agenda, in the USA can be readily explained by real history, while avoiding the popular myths that far too many people have swallowed whole.

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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Necromancer » Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:29 pm

A note on suicides in the Soviet Union and Russia by its burden of Communism and Atheism in the past:
Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1992 Jul;86(1):76-8.

Suicides in the former Soviet republics.

Värnik A1, Wasserman D.

Abstract

The suicide rate in the former Soviet Union rose from 17.1 per 100,000 inhabitants in 1965 to 29.6 in 1984. In regions of long-standing traditional lifestyles, strong religious faith and multi-generation families (the Caucasus and central Asia), the suicide rate was low, whereas in regions with sociopolitical antagonisms (Baltic States) and forced social changes (Russia), it was high. A significant decline in the suicide rate (34.5%), from 29.6 to 19.4 per 100,000 inhabitants, occurred in 1984-1988 throughout the Soviet Union, in the hopeful period of social democratization and stiff restrictions on the sale of alcohol. Rates varied widely between different republics - from 1.8 in Armenia to 26.3 in Lithuania and 24.3 in the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic (RSFSR) in 1988. In contrast to the pattern in several countries in western Europe, the suicide rates in the Russian SFSR were much higher in the rural regions than in the urban ones.
- Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1414406
Wikipedia:

Suicide in Russia is a significant national social issue[1]. As of April 2016 the suicide rate dropped by 7.2% compared to 2015, and reached 15.4 suicides per 100,000 citizens, the lowest level in 54 years.[2] Researchers have observed a close association between heavy alcohol consumption in Russia and suicide.[3]
- Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Russia

Compared to Christian USA:
Wikipedia:

There were 42,773 recorded suicides in the United States in 2014 according to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS).[1][2][3] On average, adjusted for age, the annual U.S. suicide rate increased 24% over the 15 previous years (1999 to 2014), from 10.5 to 13.0 suicides per 100,000 people, the highest rate recorded in 28 years.[4][5]

In 2009, suicide was the seventh leading cause of death for males and the 16th leading cause of death for females. Suicide was the third leading cause of death for young people ages 15 to 24.[6] It is also the second leading cause for those ages 15–34. From 1999 to 2010, the suicide rate among American ages 35 to 64 increased nearly 30 percent. The largest increases were among men in their fifties, with rates rising nearly 50 percent, to 30 per 100,000. For women aged 60 to 64, rates rose 60 percent, to 7.0 per 100,000.[5] In 2008, it was observed that U.S. suicide rates, particularly among middle-aged white women, had increased, although the causes were unclear.[7] According to the last study done by the American Foundation For Suicide Prevention,[8] in 2014 suicide was the 10th leading cause of death in the US. Moreover, each year 44,193 Americans die by suicide, imposing a cost of $51 billion to US annually.
- Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_i ... ted_States

Well, well, the Atheists say this and that, but they are terrible at nationbuilding...! So much for their ethical relativism! :wink: 8)

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Greatest I am
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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Greatest I am » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:00 pm

Science Fan wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 5:23 pm
This post ignores a great deal of history. Just take a look at the history of the USA. A common historical myth is that the pilgrims came to America to avoid religious persecution in Europe, and did so by establishing a nation that gave everyone religious freedom. The actual historical facts are dramatically different. After fleeing persecution in Europe, the pilgrims oppressed other religious people.

What people typically fail to distinguish is the federal government from the state governments. Although the federal government was free from religion, a secular government, the original 13 state governments were all religious theocracies. In the early days of the American republic, most people thought of themselves as a citizen of a particular state, and only secondarily, if they thought about it at all, as a citizen of the USA. The state governments were more influential over a person's life than the federal government was at the time the nation was founded.

Every state was based on a Christian theocracy, with 6 of the original states even having public financing of their respective state churches. All of the states discriminated against religious minorities, even Christian minorities, and definitely against Muslims, Jews, agnostics and atheists. Freedom of speech was outlawed in these states, and people did get sent to prison for committing the crime of "blasphemy." It was not until the late 1940s that the US Supreme Court applied the First Amendment to the states through the 14th Amendment.

So, historically, in the USA, when Christians ruled, they denied citizenship to all people of color, they denied the right to vote for women, they even excluded poor white men from being able to vote. In addition, they denied religious minorities the right to hold state public office, and even banned agnostics and atheists from being able to testify in court --- even on their own behalf.

Over and over again, the freethinker movement in the USA, primarily made-up of atheists and agnostics, was at the forefront in the battle of extending rights to minorities. They were influential in providing equal rights to colored people, poor people, women, and even today, have largely led the fight for gay rights.

The USA is a perfect example of atheists ensuring greater civil liberties to minorities than a Christian majority, which, when it held power, engaged in outright persecution against others. The Christian right today, in the USA, represents the people who want to go back to the time when Christians were able to persecute non-Christians. There would be no Christian right in the USA if the nation allowed religious freedom from the beginning. These people did not just pop into existence out of a vacuum. Their presence, and political agenda, in the USA can be readily explained by real history, while avoiding the popular myths that far too many people have swallowed whole.
I agree that if Christianity had the power we would have new Inquisitions popping up.

Christians would deny the population the freedom of religion they say they embrace if the right wing ever gained political power.

Regards
DL

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Re: When will Atheists learn to accept and love Democracy?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:11 am

Netherlands is mostly atheist and they're doing just fine. It may in fact be as high as 95% of the population.

I'm not quite sure that you're point is coherent to what you're getting at, because the very vast majority of dictators in history have been religious.

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