If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Harbal
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Harbal »

thedoc wrote: Thankyou, can I put that on my resume?
I'm sorry, doc, I couldn't resist. :D
I'm sure you won't take it seriously.
There are a few that I enjoy reading, but most are dross.
You surely can't mean me. :cry:
thedoc
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by thedoc »

Harbal wrote:
thedoc wrote: There are a few that I enjoy reading, but most are dross.
You surely can't mean me. :cry:
No, I do sometimes find your posts entertaining, and meaningless which I'm sure is what you intend.
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Harbal
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Harbal »

thedoc wrote:
No, I do sometimes find your posts entertaining,
I'll win you over yet, doc. :)
and meaningless which I'm sure is what you intend.
No, that's accidental.
thedoc
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by thedoc »

Harbal wrote:
thedoc wrote:
No, I do sometimes find your posts entertaining,
I'll win you over yet, doc. :)
Why don't you be specific as to what you are trying to win me over to. At least Henry was honest about inviting me to the couch forum, and then welcoming me to the dark side.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Immanuel Can »

thedoc wrote:I should really start taking my own advice, "when in the company of fools, keep your own council".
I've heard it said,

"Arguing with a fool is like wrestling with a pig;

You both get up dirty, but the pig enjoys it."

:wink:
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Harbal
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Harbal »

thedoc wrote: Why don't you be specific as to what you are trying to win me over to.
I'm just waiting for you to realise what a nice, friendly fellow I am.
At least Henry was honest about inviting me to the couch forum,
I'd rather wait and see how things go before I invite you onto my couch.
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Harbal
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote:

"Arguing with a fool is like wrestling with a pig;

You both get up dirty, but the pig enjoys it."

:wink:
I don't think thedoc deserved that, Immanuel, you should apologise to him before you lose your only friend.
thedoc
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote:
thedoc wrote:I should really start taking my own advice, "when in the company of fools, keep your own council".
I've heard it said,

"Arguing with a fool is like wrestling with a pig;

You both get up dirty, but the pig enjoys it."

:wink:
There is certainly no shortage of fools on this forum to argue with. If we are inclined, it will keep the Christians busy arguing with the atheists fools, for a long time.
Dubious
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Dubious »

thedoc wrote:There is certainly no shortage of fools on this forum to argue with. If we are inclined, it will keep the Christians busy arguing with the atheists fools, for a long time.
...thus those enlightened by god and scripture have spoken. I won't ask what god has done for you - tragically that part is obvious - but what you have done to god through lies and subterfuge. God shrinks immeasurably in the way you defend it. You have no friend in Jesus either who hated hypocrites more than anything!
Dubious
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Dubious »

Belinda wrote:The Ode to a Nightingale, BTW, is a pathway towards the eternal and the longing for it, like Starry Night, and the sacrifice of Jesus points to eternity and its infinite empathy.
Are you familiar with Shelley's elegy "Adonais" on the death of John Keats? The last four stanzas in this very long poem describes a longing for eternity as hardly any other poems do...

LII
The One remains, the many change and pass;
Heaven's light forever shines, Earth's shadows fly;
Life, like a dome of many-colour'd glass,
Stains the white radiance of Eternity,
Until Death tramples it to fragments.—Die,
If thou wouldst be with that which thou dost seek!
Follow where all is fled!—Rome's azure sky,
Flowers, ruins, statues, music, words, are weak
The glory they transfuse with fitting truth to speak.

LIII
Why linger, why turn back, why shrink, my Heart?
Thy hopes are gone before: from all things here
They have departed; thou shouldst now depart!
A light is pass'd from the revolving year,
And man, and woman; and what still is dear
Attracts to crush, repels to make thee wither.
The soft sky smiles, the low wind whispers near:
'Tis Adonais calls! oh, hasten thither,
No more let Life divide what Death can join together.

LIV
That Light whose smile kindles the Universe,
That Beauty in which all things work and move,
That Benediction which the eclipsing Curse
Of birth can quench not, that sustaining Love
Which through the web of being blindly wove
By man and beast and earth and air and sea,
Burns bright or dim, as each are mirrors of
The fire for which all thirst; now beams on me,
Consuming the last clouds of cold mortality.

LV
The breath whose might I have invok'd in song
Descends on me; my spirit's bark is driven,
Far from the shore, far from the trembling throng
Whose sails were never to the tempest given;
The massy earth and sphered skies are riven!
I am borne darkly, fearfully, afar;
Whilst, burning through the inmost veil of Heaven,
The soul of Adonais, like a star,
Beacons from the abode where the Eternal are.

Belinda
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Belinda »

The doc wrote:

The quoted poetic line is from the Keats poem, Ode On A Grecian Urn, btw.

This is the rest of what usually comprises the reference, which is rather important to the meaning.

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."
It is interesting that Ode to a Grecian Urn uses visual imagery for eternity, while Ode to a Nightingale uses mainly sound, specifically bird song, although the visuals are also present.

Keats's poetry involves all the senses. The great use of poetry is that it evokes and includes all or any of the sensory systems in its imagery. Poetry's sound forms can imitate music.

Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.


All the sensory modalities are bound together solely by beauty. As Spinoza said, the mind is the idea of the body.

Dubious, it's a pity to dissect a poem . However I am intrigued by Life, like a dome of many-colour'd glass,
Stains the white radiance of Eternity,


and guess that Shelley must have been aware of the colour spectrum. I wonder if the colour spectrum analogy would help some seekers among metaphysics to understand eternity.
Walker
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Walker »

Belinda wrote:The doc wrote:

The quoted poetic line is from the Keats poem, Ode On A Grecian Urn, btw.

This is the rest of what usually comprises the reference, which is rather important to the meaning.

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."
It is interesting that Ode to a Grecian Urn uses visual imagery for eternity, while Ode to a Nightingale uses mainly sound, specifically bird song, although the visuals are also present.

Keats's poetry involves all the senses. The great use of poetry is that it evokes and includes all or any of the sensory systems in its imagery. Poetry's sound forms can imitate music.

Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.


All the sensory modalities are bound together solely by beauty. As Spinoza said, the mind is the idea of the body.

Dubious, it's a pity to dissect a poem . However I am intrigued by Life, like a dome of many-colour'd glass,
Stains the white radiance of Eternity,


and guess that Shelley must have been aware of the colour spectrum. I wonder if the colour spectrum analogy would help some seekers among metaphysics to understand eternity.
O Attic shape! Fair attitude! with brede
Of marble men and maidens overwrought,
With forest branches and the trodden weed;
Thou, silent form, dost tease us out of thought
As doth eternity: Cold Pastoral!
When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st,
"Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."


Keats is saying that beauty is a timeless concept, or principle, that exists every moment, even though people come and go. Same with truth.

Question: how is it that concept and physical form “tease us out of thought.”

Answer:
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Harbal
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Harbal »

Walker wrote: Keats is saying that beauty is a timeless concept, or principle, that exists every moment, even though people come and go. Same with truth.
Same with any abstract concept, isn't it? Ugliness, Falseness, Fatness, Boredom etc.
Walker
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Walker »

Harbal wrote:
Walker wrote: Keats is saying that beauty is a timeless concept, or principle, that exists every moment, even though people come and go. Same with truth.
Same with any abstract concept, isn't it? Ugliness, Falseness, Fatness, Boredom etc.
- Not every thought is a concept.
- Not ever concept is a principle.
- A principle does not change.

- Ugliness, Falseness, Fatness, Boredom etc. do not describe the urn.
- Ugliness, Falseness, Fatness, Boredom etc. are not ever-present.
- Other than the beauty of the urn, only truth does not change.
- Other than the beauty of the urn, only truth is ever-present.
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Harbal
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Re: If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Post by Harbal »

Walker wrote:- Ugliness, Falseness, Fatness, Boredom etc. do not describe the urn.
What if I happen to think the urn is ugly and I'm bored with it?
- Ugliness, Falseness, Fatness, Boredom etc. are not ever-present.
Then neither is beauty.
- Other than the beauty of the urn, only truth does not change.
Truth in general or truth about something in particular.
- Other than the beauty of the urn, only truth is ever-present.
What on earth does that mean? :?
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