If God is so merciful, then why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

[Dontaskme]

And are we wrong to ask God why He is apparently not doing anything about it?...yes, don't petition God...

I disagree. I think you're being unfair to the people who want to ask the question. It's a good one, one most people ask themselves at some time in life, and one that any worldview needs to be able to respond to.

I disagree. I think it's okay to ask the question ..just don't expect an answer to come from outside your self believing you are separate from him...instead have the maturity to realise that any answer is only going to come from within yourself not from some other source that you believe separate from you and that you are not complete without it. If your that lost and insecure in yourself, that you have to seek outside yourself for something else to complete you...then you are going to be disappointed, since only you can complete you.

Why should injustice be "allowed"? And if there's a God, what need He fear from our "petitions"?

Because true love allows all things, if not we wouldn't be free...we'd be slaves to ourselves....God's grace is that he grants us that freedom to choose him or the ego..to reject him or be with him or reconcile with him if we've strayed too far along an unrighteous path.

There is no if's about it, there is a God, he's right here with you now as you, so nothing to fear is there but your own shadow eclipsing his light. Get out of your own way and there he will be right here in plain veiw. That's what the Bible is teaching us..It's first person I witness account of God's existence. That's what Jesus taught surrender and self-sacrifice to God's will alone,...but how many of us are prepared to make that sacrifice...to take up our own cross and live through agony ...to die for what we know is a lie... don't we rather follow our own will of seeking pleasure all the time with often dire consequences, but then that's God's plan isn't it, to break us down which ever way it takes so that we may return home to his love...because that's how much he loves us that we return to him safe and well..home in the arms of the beloved..where we've never left.

Are you worried He has no answer?

No, I once asked for some answers, but there was nothing but silence, but with perseverance and patience, trust and faith, an answer came... God didn't just give it to me on a silver plate, I had to earn it, by not giving up... I had to find it for myself and realised it was within me all the time.

The one question we should be asking ourself is just who the heck do we think we are to doubt ourself ...isn't it enough that we are ...but if we are to doubt our doubt then by all means ..'' seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.''

[Belinda]

And are we wrong to ask God why He is apparently not doing anything about it?...yes, don't petition God...

I disagree. I think you're being unfair to the people who want to ask the question. It's a good one, one most people ask themselves at some time in life, and one that any worldview needs to be able to respond to.

Why should injustice be "allowed"? And if there's a God, what need He fear from our "petitions"?

Are you worried He has no answer?

This is all pretty well written up in The Book of Job.

[thedoc]

And are we wrong to ask God why He is apparently not doing anything about it?...yes, don't petition God...

I disagree. I think you're being unfair to the people who want to ask the question. It's a good one, one most people ask themselves at some time in life, and one that any worldview needs to be able to respond to.

Why should injustice be "allowed"? And if there's a God, what need He fear from our "petitions"?

Are you worried He has no answer?

This is all pretty well written up in The Book of Job.

And God answered, "Because I'm God and you're not, that's why."

[osgart]

I am trying to get a sense of Christian justice. How they perceive all people in regards to it. it seems someone righteous and innocent by self sacrifice satisfies guilty punishment which to me is outrageous. They really abandon logic and reason in their convictions. They see only through the lens of the bible. every reality of actual personhood goes ignored.

I wonder to a strong degree if they are really trying to rid the world of non Christians. The Bible is how they judge people. They are not that far from being equal to Muslim extremists. They ignore the fact that a lot of non Christians are responsible for their freedom and prosperity. They are militant and blind to genuine good. They really want our souls saved or to rot in hell. They are frustrating to deal with. They can blame themselves for wars and strifes as far as I am concerned. I see no great compassion in them . To me most and not all are total ignoramus' s. A good number of decent people get sucked into it and live conflicted lives. I feel sorry for those.

The staunch Christians I could care less. they have a blind cloak of hatred in them professing it to be love.

[Belinda]

The doc wrote;

And God answered, "Because I'm God and you're not, that's why."

that's how you interpret the whirlwind?

https://www.enterthebible.org/Controls/ ... inal_id=38

The answer to why-suffering? is not to be found in human reason but is to be found in , not mystification or the god of the gaps, but in the vision of the whole i.e. eternity. However it's hard to see how some ordinary sufferer can be comforted by by being told to look to eternity. The vision of eternity that pertains to Christ on the Cross is one of the few sort of understandable comforts. Unfortunately we today are understandably swept away by the cruelty and human sacrifice interpretations of the Crucifixion story. In a more brutal age the Crucifixion story would have had a metaphysical meaning.

The beauty of God's declaration at the end of the Book of Job is best not taken fatalistically, or as a plea for the simplistic argument from design.The poetry of God's declaration is in its ability to make us see eternity as opposed to this relative world in which there is pain and not-pain.

[Immanuel Can]

The doc wrote;

And God answered, "Because I'm God and you're not, that's why."

that's how you interpret the whirlwind?

https://www.enterthebible.org/Controls/ ... inal_id=38

The answer to why-suffering? is not to be found in human reason but is to be found in , not mystification or the god of the gaps, but in the vision of the whole i.e. eternity. However it's hard to see how some ordinary sufferer can be comforted by by being told to look to eternity. The vision of eternity that pertains to Christ on the Cross is one of the few sort of understandable comforts. Unfortunately we today are understandably swept away by the cruelty and human sacrifice interpretations of the Crucifixion story. In a more brutal age the Crucifixion story would have had a metaphysical meaning.

The beauty of God's declaration at the end of the Book of Job is best not taken fatalistically, or as a plea for the simplistic argument from design.The poetry of God's declaration is in its ability to make us see eternity as opposed to this relative world in which there is pain and not-pain.

This is a thoughtful and balanced explanation, Belinda. Thank you for that: it's helpful.

A couple of thoughts. Is God's answer to Job so much "I'm God and you're not," as thedoc seems to imply, as "I'm God, and if I tried to explain it to you, you wouldn't be big enough to get it?"

In other words, it's not a matter of not-caring, so much as that the full explanation of why things happen is beyond the ken of mere mortals by its sheer quantity and intricacy? I think that's possible.

Now, Leibniz was of this sort of mind. He thought that our problem with evil and suffering was essentially one of perspective -- that we are too small, too close to the details, and too limited to encompass the details of cause and effect that are implicated in the existence of suffering. If we stood back, we'd see the whole tapestry, so to speak, and not merely the loose threads in front of our noses.

I have some sympathy with that suggestion. But I still also think we are endowed by our Creator with an inherent sense that there ought to be justice, fairness, equity, and so on, and with the ability to perceive that these things are not currently available to us as we'd like. And I don't think we are evil or impertinent for using the faculty God has given us to perceive the need for justice, or to ask questions about it.

As for the potential "insult to God" (if anyone perceives such) in doing so, I think any "insult" would be a function not of the question but of the attitude of the questioner: namely, is one asking cynically and rudely, as if the Supreme Being owes one an answer, or is one asking genuinely, in faith that a kind God would be willing to help one understand? If it's the latter, I don't see us as being out-of-court to persist in asking why evil and suffering exist.

Just my two cents. Thanks again for yours.

[Immanuel Can]

I am trying to get a sense of Christian justice.

Really?

It sounds a bit more like maybe you've already decided what to think. After all, you say,

They really abandon logic and reason in their convictions. They see only through the lens of the bible. every reality of actual personhood goes ignored.

...and so on, concluding with,

The staunch Christians I could care less. they have a blind cloak of hatred in them professing it to be love.

I wouldn't think that leaves much room for a genuine question, would it? I mean, if Christians are all just a bunch of willful "ignoramuses," then it would seem you have all the answers you were seeking.

But would it bother you if the answers you had about that weren't actually true?

And if it wouldn't, then why ask the question?

[osgart]

the ultimatum is believe or burn in hell and take the Bible as literal history.

How honest is that?

they're actually serious.

I want no part of that kind of Christian.

others who take the Bible figuratively and as a man made book I'm fine with.

[thedoc]

I am trying to get a sense of Christian justice. How they perceive all people in regards to it. it seems someone righteous and innocent by self sacrifice satisfies guilty punishment which to me is outrageous. They really abandon logic and reason in their convictions. They see only through the lens of the bible. every reality of actual personhood goes ignored.

I wonder to a strong degree if they are really trying to rid the world of non Christians. The Bible is how they judge people. They are not that far from being equal to Muslim extremists. They ignore the fact that a lot of non Christians are responsible for their freedom and prosperity. They are militant and blind to genuine good. They really want our souls saved or to rot in hell. They are frustrating to deal with. They can blame themselves for wars and strifes as far as I am concerned. I see no great compassion in them . To me most and not all are total ignoramus' s. A good number of decent people get sucked into it and live conflicted lives. I feel sorry for those.

The staunch Christians I could care less. they have a blind cloak of hatred in them professing it to be love.

Who are you talking about, certainly not the Christians that I am familiar with. It seems that you have observed some fundamentalist extremist people calling themselves Christian and now want to paint all Christians with the same brush. Members of the KKK also claim to be Christian but their actions are about as non-Christian as you can get, do you see all Christians as members of the KKK, if so I feel very sorry for your delusions.

[osgart]

I made no mention of the kkk. And there are plenty of Christian extremists out there unless you have your head under a rock .

[thedoc]

Just my two cents. Thanks again for yours.

I think this sums it up pretty nicely,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwkgGPvClF4

[thedoc]

I made no mention of the kkk. And there are plenty of Christian extremists out there unless you have your head under a rock .

What you described are extremists and I would not consider them Christian no matter what they call themselves. The KKK was an example of the people you were describing, while I recognize that some literalists might really be Christian, extremists certainly are outside of Christian teaching.

[thedoc]

I am trying to get a sense of Christian justice.

You seem to be looking in the wrong place, try looking at actual Christians, not fundamentalist extremists who claim that label.

[osgart]

than what is a True Christian?

[thedoc]

than what is a True Christian?

One who follows the teachings of Jesus, look it up and learn something.