Is transgender something to get upset about?

[Immanuel Can]

Instead of dodging and weaving from a straightforward question he is asking me an impossible one...He's asking me how a peak experience that inextricably floods one with a sense of love and understanding can make one more kindly and less cruel. An impossible question.

Oh, that. I think it's not at all impossible. An "experience" does not justify one becoming "more kindly and less cruel" unless it is a very specific kind of experience that conduces to those particular qualities, an "experience" that one KNOWS one is interpreting correctly.

I just wonder how you'd a) have such an experience, and b) know for certain what it was telling you to do. I mean, I guess you could have a vision of God coming down to you on clouds and telling you such things, but I don't get a sense that that is what you are claiming.

So I'm just asking what you ARE claiming? What is this "experience," and how do you know what it told you to do?

I can at least say what a person of goodwill is not - one who would knowingly harm or disparage the vulnerable.

Fair enough. But again, from where are you deriving this insight? I don't argue that it is wrong, of course; only that I am not yet able to see how you obtained it. If you don't believe in a God who says to be kind to weak and vulnerable, then what philosopher, angel or little bird conveyed this moral insight to you? And I really think you should be able to answer that -- unless you're just speaking about a gut instinct you have, but one so deeply buried in your own psyche or background that you've never even thought to examine the justification for it.

And even if that is the case, maybe the time to ask how you know what you say you know is right now; after all, isn't that what philosophy is about?

[Belinda]

Immanuel Can wrote:

Honestly, I don't know what you are asking me. I would like to answer, but can't tell what "good will" means in your frame of reference.

Will means what you want and intend.

Good means what tends to alleviate suffering. True, it's easier to define the bad than to define the good, that is why the Buddha's insight is so useful to philosophers in particular.

Taken together, good and will, goodwill means wanting and intending the good.

Maybe you are right to insist on defining what I meant, and your question highlights a general need to
define the good. As I said, you define it as lessening of suffering, and suffering is itself easy to define.

[TSBU]

Is people geting upset because of transgender something to get upset about?

[Immanuel Can]

Will means what you want and intend.

Ah. So "volition," not merely "desire." That was the one that was easiest.

Good means what tends to alleviate suffering.

Problem: not all suffering is, per se, "bad."

Athletes "suffer" to train their muscles. Women "suffer" to carry a pregnancy, but assure us men that it's a "joy" we will never understand. A noble soldier may suffer and die in battle, fighting against a pernicious foe and obtaining freedom for many, and afterward be hailed as a person of the highest value. Even in our own lives, we find we learn more and grow more by the unpleasant things, the strains, the pains and the suffering than by the times of ease and comfort.

So is it really an uncontentious "truth" that suffering is always bad? I wouldn't think so.

True, it's easier to define the bad than to define the good, that is why the Buddha's insight is so useful to philosophers in particular.

I don't know...people today don't seem to know much about evil either.

Taken together, good and will, goodwill means wanting and intending the good.

That would be, "having the volition to eliminate suffering, then?"

And the question then becomes, "How would I identify a person who desires to eliminate suffering?"

Easily enough, I think. A compassionate physician...a dedicated teacher...a protective spouse or parent...those seem clear cases of what you mean, I would think. But I'm not quite content with your implied view that doing such things is the best, the only or the consummate way of thinking about "good."

So have I answered your real question now?

[Immanuel Can]

Is people geting upset because of transgender something to get upset about?

Likely not: it's unlikely to change much.

But it might be worth getting upset about if gender dysphoria is a mental illness, and people refuse to recognize it as such and insist (for their own agenda reasons) on pretending to "normalize" it, thereby also refusing to provide the support, counselling and allocate the other aids and resources to the treatment of that illness...and then afterwards refuse to recognize the ongoing suffering of the gender dysphoric, as it contradicts their preferred narrative...

Then the failure to recognize it as "something to get upset about" would be the real problem. And people would pay for it with their health and lives.

[TSBU]

Is people geting upset because of transgender something to get upset about?

Likely not: it's unlikely to change much.

But it might be worth getting upset about if gender dysphoria is a mental illness, and people refuse to recognize it as such and insist (for their own agenda reasons) on pretending to "normalize" it, thereby also refusing to provide the support, counselling and allocate the other aids and resources to the treatment of that illness...and then afterwards refuse to recognize the ongoing suffering of the gender dysphoric, as it contradicts their preferred narrative...

Then the failure to recognize it as "something to get upset about" would be the real problem. And people would pay for it with their health and lives.

Every person talking about mental illness is something to be seen carefully in my eyes. It's not sane to think that majorit is sane XD. And it's creepy that you insist in this topic and while millions of people die because more simple things... but... there are many creepy things anyway, you are just one more

[Belinda]

So have I answered your real question now?

I don't know, Immanuel. Your post ended okay, but began with unnecessary quibbles. Perhaps it's not so much the quibbles themselves as that the tone of your post seems to be unnecessarily hostile.

[Immanuel Can]

Every person talking about mental illness is something to be seen carefully in my eyes. It's not sane to think that majorit is sane XD.

Ha. There's something in that.

And it's creepy that you insist in this topic and while millions of people die because more simple things... but... there are many creepy things anyway, you are just one more

Actually, I don't "insist" on anything, so don't worry. I offered a few insights on the statistics of mental illness and body dysphoria on page 1, but was not the creator of the OP at all, nor have I kept it going. Once in, I try to honour the OP. But it's not a topic I would have chosen here myself, simply because this isn't a forum where much is likely to be done to help anyone on that score.

[Immanuel Can]

I don't know, Immanuel. Your post ended okay, but began with unnecessary quibbles. Perhaps it's not so much the quibbles themselves as that the tone of your post seems to be unnecessarily hostile.

Ah. I've run into this before. People who are new into philosophical discussion sometimes worry that the process is to adversarial; as if everybody who is in it is angry unless they are agreeing. I don't feel that, personally; and I think that debaters who are more familiar with the process tend not to be alarmed by it either. It's not personal...ideally.

But that "seems," as you say, reminds me of a line from To Kill A Mockingbird, wherein the heroine says that as a lawyers kid she was always aware the the prosecutor and the defender were usually friends, but some people less familiar with court would think that the two sides must surely be enemies when they watched them making a case against each other.

We're not in a court, of course, but a forum for philosophical debate does partake of some of the same features: most particularly, it's a place of skepticism not credulity, and a place in which opinions are never accepted simply "for the sake of the relationship," as they often are in polite society, but are rather questioned, examined, and then justified if possible. Like a court, it employs reasons and evidence, not merely opinion. And it's a place for cool, rational examination, ideally, rather than either back pats or cream pies in the face. Gratuitous insults and gratuitous acceptance...both are out of place in a place like this.

However, I admit that it's easy to mistake a spirit of skepticism or a request for clarification or justification as a hostile act. In polite company, perhaps it would be; but in a court or forum such as this, not at all.

Really, it's just business as usual.

[TSBU]

Every person talking about mental illness is something to be seen carefully in my eyes. It's not sane to think that majorit is sane XD.

Ha. There's something in that.

And it's creepy that you insist in this topic and while millions of people die because more simple things... but... there are many creepy things anyway, you are just one more

Actually, I don't "insist" on anything, so don't worry. I offered a few insights on the statistics of mental illness and body dysphoria on page 1, but was not the creator of the OP at all, nor have I kept it going. Once in, I try to honour the OP. But it's not a topic I would have chosen here myself, simply because this isn't a forum where much is likely to be done to help anyone on that score.

Have you ever met any person with that thoughts?

I don't. What I've found are suicide thoughts, self mutilation, masoquists, people with ... squizofrenia? I don't know how to say it in English, bipolar, anorexic, bullimic, the devil in a human body, sadists, addicts to drugs, alcohol, sex, food, body training... in the end, many "strange" people. Many of them seemed to me more happy, more intelligent, more logical, with better behaviour in their lifes, than common people. And, even though I met more than one in some of the cases, their motives to be that way were completely different and their personality too. In some of that cases (squizofrenia, bipolarity, depression...) in my eyes they were completely common people. They were just sad because of a logical reason or things like that. Being very sad or very happy is not an illness, not sleping in 4 days and see ants... I can't even imagine how it is to be 4 days without sleeping.

Well, I have a... how do you call a person you know since you were a child but you don't have more feelings than tradition in seeing that person? call it friend if you want, who is a soldier (Well, not a soldier, I don't know how to say it, a tenient?), very patriotic, and he says that he like to kill people. It seems like he is "sane", at least nobody (nor doctors) except me thinks otherwise. I know people who watch many tv series just to talk about them because the rest of the people say it. Being adults... I know people who put paper in a cage thinking that it's going to change something and they are being responsible. Etc.

If you are going to be ruled by the things that everybody say, do it, if you don't, maybe you should meet the people you are talking about, maybe they have something to say, maybe you don't know them because of what you read in books or see in tv.

Last post here ^^

[Immanuel Can]

Have you ever met any person with that thoughts?

Body dysphoria? Yes. I was talking with one this morning, actually. I've met quite a few, but it's because in the nature of my job I meet a lot more people than most people do.

What's your home language? I understand your English.

[TSBU]

Have you ever met any person with that thoughts?

Body dysphoria? Yes. I was talking with one this morning, actually. I've met quite a few, but it's because in the nature of my job I meet a lot more people than most people do.

What's your home language? I understand your English.

Spanish.

Transgender is not body dysphoria, or at least, that's not enough definition of the problem. Half of the world have or has had body dysphoria, just in different grades. It's highly common to see people who think that they are more phisical atrative or less than what they really are, who exagerate their own parts of the body. Hell, the rare is the oposite, you only have to watch tv XD... ok, there are grades. In any case, there are many reasons to feel that they have a "wrong body", a common one is that they are not as attractive as they want, but there are many more, including people who want to cut one leg, because they feel strange with it, people who want to be less atractive, etc. Completely diferent problems. And in some cases, it's very understable to feel that way, if you borned witout legs... who wouldn't want to have them? And changing parts of the body is very common, you probably know that women can get their tits cut after a cancer, and medicine usually put fake tits there, and nobody see that (or only very few people) as a mental illness, etc. A lot of people sspend many time doing exercise, paying for creams etc...

But only a very small percentage of them want to change their sex. The question I was asking is "have you ever met a person who has tried to change his sex, or want to do it?

Not so long ago, being a gay was synonim of being a coward, the common people thought is somehing like "he can't get what he wants, so he goes with the rest", very related with the common thought "sex=winer" or seeing having a mate like a fight between males.
But it's not that simple XD... and... talk about sanity in sex after opening a porn site, seeing how being fat is for many people a crime or what are most of people able to do in order to get sex with the person they like (becoming retarded in the process in many cases) is... yeah... sanity... sure...

People smoke, that's an adiction that will destroy you. As far as I know, changing sex is not worse for the body than smoking cigarettes. Do you want to forbide smoking? and it certanly is their body, not mine, ther life.

No matter what you think, it depends on the case, and if you really want to help a person, then do it yourself, at least try to know the fucking person before interfering in their choices.

[Belinda]

Imanuel Can wrote:

Problem: not all suffering is, per se, "bad."

Athletes "suffer" to train their muscles. Women "suffer" to carry a pregnancy, but assure us men that it's a "joy" we will never understand. A noble soldier may suffer and die in battle, fighting against a pernicious foe and obtaining freedom for many, and afterward be hailed as a person of the highest value. Even in our own lives, we find we learn more and grow more by the unpleasant things, the strains, the pains and the suffering than by the times of ease and comfort.

So is it really an uncontentious "truth" that suffering is always bad? I wouldn't think so.

This is not an adversarial situation, Immanuel. We all know that there is suffering and each of us here wants to alleviate it. We are all on the same side; it's not a court of law with counsels for the accused and for the defence. Therefore you should put your effort towards suggestions to diminish suffering not into hostility. Did you perhaps think that when I asked you to say how you would identify a man of goodwill that I was trying to put you in the wrong? Or perhaps you regard philosophy like a game of chess.

I did not say that all suffering is bad. I have actually written that pain aids survival as when a healthy person knows when a movement would strain a joint, because pain acts as a warning.

If you were to point out to me where for instance I lack scepticism, I'd thank you.

In a cooperative spirit you might have written " Despite that pain and suffering is sometimes beneficial, the suffering in this world is, I agree ,so bad that we want to alleviate it where we can."

[Immanuel Can]

Spanish.

Magnificent language. So expressive. I regret I have all too little of it right now. Lo siento.

Transgender is not body dysphoria, or at least, that's not enough definition of the problem.

It is, it's just an extreme form and, as you say, often associated with other conditions that complicate it, such as Aspergers Syndrome or a history of abuse. The people who experience it are thoroughly worthy of sympathy.

Completely diferent problems. And in some cases, it's very understable to feel that way, if you borned witout legs... who wouldn't want to have them?

Actually some body-dysphoric people wouldn't want them. Consider the sufferers of BIID, for example: they actually amputate limbs, or maim themselves...but then, so do some of the "transgendered."

But only a very small percentage of them want to change their sex. The question I was asking is "have you ever met a person who has tried to change his sex, or want to do it?

The person I was speaking with this morning is in the process.

...being fat is for many people a crime...

It shouldn't be...but neither should it be "normalized." Fat kills. It creates heart attacks, joint problems, fertility issues, breathing problems, economic distress, social impairment, severe self-image problems, and sometimes death. It should be treated, not normalized.

People smoke, that's an adiction that will destroy you. As far as I know, changing sex is not worse for the body than smoking cigarettes.

I don't normalize smoking either. It kills too. I know several people who could not quit, and died of lung cancer. That's truly horrible. We should wish for every person who smokes that they would quit before they die horribly. We shouldn't encourage them to smoke.

Do you want to forbide smoking?

Do you want to empower lung cancer?

No matter what you think, it depends on the case, and if you really want to help a person, then do it yourself, at least try to know the fucking person before interfering in their choices.

If someone is mentally ill, then what they do is either a reduced choice, in some cases, or no choice at all. In such cases, we "interfere" if we can, because the person in question is needing help.

That is why we don't execute the insane: even if they committed homicide, they could not always help it. And to the extent they could not help it, we may even incarcerate them for their own good and the good of society; but we also treat them, and we don't regard their behaviour as criminal. They had no ability to do otherwise at the time.

Since you ask, I can tell you that the person I'm talking to about this I know very well. And I don't "interfere" with his choice: he is going ahead as he sees fit. I have no power and no intention to restrict him. But I fear for him, because when it's all over, he'll find no sympathy among the "liberal" set, if he continues to have struggles with his identity, self-image and self-destructiveness. The "liberals" will refuse him compassion, because he won't fit their narrative about how transgenderism solves such issues. They will isolate him and ignore him. Their attitude will be, "Why is he complaining? He makes it sound like transgendering doesn't help sufferers become "normal" and "happy." " They will prefer their narrative to his happiness...and life...and they will make him an outcast if he complains.

So I sincerely fear for him. His "allies" will turn on him instantly if this does not work. And they will continue to deny he needs help. He will be all alone. But I will not turn on him. His friendship with me will not depend on my agreement with his choice, and I will continue to see him as a real person and a friend, and I will treat him as such.

I wonder, would you? If a friend of yours were to convert to some conservative religious or political position with which you don't agree -- perhaps, say, opposing the normalizing of transgenderism, for example -- could you still treat him as a friend?

[Belinda]

Immanuel Can wrote:

Transgender is not body dysphoria, or at least, that's not enough definition of the problem.

It is, it's just an extreme form and, as you say, often associated with other conditions that complicate it, such as Aspergers Syndrome or a history of abuse. The people who experience it are thoroughly worthy of sympathy.

The little I have read about it includes that people who feel they are caste in the wrong gender for them also sometimes want to undergo plastic surgery on their genitalia, and take hormones to alter secondary sexual characteristics. This is surely body dysphoria. I blame cultural norms for insisting that gender must match the genitalia, and remain constant.

I would like to know where and how those cultural norms arose. I suspect that the age-old disempowerment of women and consequent male paranoia results in male stereotyping.

We should call it child abuse when a child is expected to conform to a gender stereoptype even when he or she don't feel like conforming.