Is transgender something to get upset about?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: My reply to Immanuel:
There is no "the educational system", these vary from country to country,
I mean the basic procedures: the factory model of large, collective classes, desks, rote learning, a high prioritization of auditory learning, with some verbal but very little kinesthetic...and so on. Boys struggle with all that, statistically. But it's also what most people in the world know as "standard" educational practice.
If you refer to curriculums those are dictated by law to a large extent.
Often true.
Do you imagine that girls are inherently less interested than boys in science , is that the problem?

Statistically, right now, they seem to be. In my country, for example, women are not only welcomed into STEM subjects; they are embraced. The standards are rearranged to as to increase their admissibility, and upon graduation, they are prized for employment. But we cannot seem to get young women to choose those subjects in the numbers we would like. And that's not because of discrimination, because the discrimination is all IN FAVOUR of that happening; they just don't seem to want to choose it as often as boys do.

You can ask them why yourself. I'll bet they won't say, "Because the boys make me feel bad." I'll bet they say, "That's not as interesting to me as...."
As to method I taught my students and pupils according to their individual needs as all decent teachers do.
You'll have been limited by what they provided you, and by what you were legislated or contracted to do. That's the reality for all teachers.
There still exists a glass ceiling for women (Trump administration! )and there is even a social class bias. It's an uphill struggle to make employers observe equality laws.
Ridiculous: you cannot possibly be serious. The "Trump Administration" has been in power for less than a week. There's no reasonable way you could attribute anything at all to them.

Heck, "the Wall" hasn't even got underway yet. :lol:

If there is any governmental bias, put it at the feet of the guy in power for the last two terms. But I wouldn't even blame him, because it's just not true it's any "uphill struggle" to "observe equity laws." In fact, you get prosecuted if you don't observe them. :shock:
Women make those choices because the playing field is uneven.
It's uneven, alright: it's massively tilted in their favour. But they still won't stop making the choices they make.

Interesting, isn't it, how people are all in favour of women's "choice," until it turns out that their "choice" doesn't always fit the liberal narrative. Then their "choice" somehow is interpreted as the fault of "patriarchy"...a bogeyman that no longer exists, at least in the West.
Regarding the work women must do to gestate, labour at giving birth, and breast feed infants there is no comparison with what the fathers must do at those times. You seems to have led a sheltered life unaware of perinatal mortality in the developing world and among the world's poor on the whole.
Oh, that's fuuuuunnny! :lol: Wow. If you had any idea.... :lol:

But I can forgive you: you don't know me at all.
What would you have, Immanuel, minimal care for mothers?
No. But I would not State-subsidize either single motherhood or undiscerning promiscuity and the murder of infants. A person's reproduction is their own business, unless they hurt someone else -- like their partner or their unborn child.

Henry's right about this: they need to make responsible decisions about dating, mating and child-rearing, and pay for them themselves. It's not rightfully the State's burden to bear. Don't reproduce if you can't handle the responsibility, whether you're a man or a woman: it's that simple. Henry doesn't want to pay taxes for their choices...but who would? It's not just.
Also do reflect on seduction, rape and incest in all of which the woman is the victim of the conception event.
Reflect? It's statistically around 2% of the "terminated" pregnancies that have either medical or criminal justification. The rest are essentially elective, at the will of the woman in question. We can really only talk about the 98% in these terms, but 98% is enough for a reasonable generalization. Exceptions can be dealt with exceptionally.
I said "power". I mean any and all forms of power over others which result in who gets the best deals.

Then "power" must mean "women." They have the preponderance of the numbers and democratic power, most of the laws in their favour, the educational system on their side...they have most of "the best deals." The things in which they still don't have "the best deal" have to do with physical power and factors inherent to being female...but not to social arrangements, which mostly favour women, at least in the West.
Belinda
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by Belinda »

Well, Immanuel, perhaps you are right to like balance sheets of facts, as against speculation. I do wonder though what you use for a seive. Can you tell me your main guideline for separating fact from fiction in human affairs?

BTW Mr Trump has already allocated all the important posts in his admin, to men, mostly business associates, hasn't he?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote:Well, Immanuel, perhaps you are right to like balance sheets of facts, as against speculation. I do wonder though what you use for a seive. Can you tell me your main guideline for separating fact from fiction in human affairs?
The data. Reality. The truth. Logic. Science. These are all good filters, each in its own department.

People have all kinds of "feelings" and perceptions about things, but they're often very wrong. The way we know is because they fail to conform to reality, to logic, to data or, in short, to the facts.

Ironically, sticking to these things isn't motivated by lack of caring about what people think, feel or want to believe; it's motivated by caring about what actually happens to people. That's why people who really care prefer facts to opinions.
Belinda
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote:
The data. Reality. The truth. Logic. Science. These are all good filters, each in its own department.

People have all kinds of "feelings" and perceptions about things, but they're often very wrong. The way we know is because they fail to conform to reality, to logic, to data or, in short, to the facts.

Ironically, sticking to these things isn't motivated by lack of caring about what people think, feel or want to believe; it's motivated by caring about what actually happens to people. That's why people who really care prefer facts to opinions.
__________________________________________

Of course I agree with you. I've been trying to persuade Gustav(Is he in this forum?) that there are facts.

You failed to answer my question the answer to which matters a lot to people who seek facts.

I asked you how you separate facts from falsehoods in human affairs.This knowledge is more than commonsense and needs to have been taught to all those people who earn their livings chasing after facts. I could tell you but I want to hear it from you if you know.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Re:

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

TSBU wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:I think there is a far more serious problem. And that is due to reality dysphoria due to religion. Many people have a gene mutation which causes an unreasonable obsession with the idea of a divine being. This disorder is responsible for many psychological problems.
That's absurd. Any person with a but of curiosity about genetics or neurology can know that it's absurd. There isn't a "god gen", brain structures, thoughts, electrochemical signals, can't be so concrete in a gen... Where are the scientific studies?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene

God Gene Dysphoria Disorder.
1) Sufferers of GGDD are seldom aware of their disease, and consider themselves 'normal'. This is one of the key problems with GGDD.
Well, I'm an atheist, but believing in god ismore common than being an atheist. And what you are saying can be said about every self-lie or about common stupidity.
2) They consider most of the rest of the world as wrong, misguided, or wicked for not following their moral rules.
Most is more than half? More than half of the world believe in god, and more than half of EEUU voters have voted for that anoying guy.
3) They have a serious problem with allowing others to lead their lives in their own way. This not only negatively effects GGDD free people, but also most other sufferers of GGDD each of whom have key differences in their conceptions of this "divine presence" or "divine being".
May they have a problem leting others belive in god? Put a comunist and a capitalist (I mean, people who say they are that) in a room and they will argue for hours, considering the other one wrong. You can put a hillary and a trump voter, it would be similar.
4) This condition has led to wars of religion both inter-religious and intra-religious wars are directly attributable to those carrying the mutation, especially where those affected get into key areas of political power.
I think I can think in wars against some genetic tipes or races too... And, hell, are you saying that someone has picked samples of enough bodys in every holy war and they all have in common something that people away from the war didn't have? That would be pretty awesome!
5) For many affected in a rationally organised world these tendencies are little more than an amusing oddity, but as the condition is characterised by an arrogant confidence, there is always a danger that the condition can be passed on to others by activating epigenetically others' GGDD gene.
Rationallly organised world... yeeeaaaahh....
6) Severe cases include Hitler and Donald Trump.
Oh, I think that's one of the wars that included hate against other races and some believers in god...

GGDD Treatment regimes.


Identification of the "god gene" or the GGDD, is relatively new and has been previously masked as simple cultural indoctrination.
God gene... it is ridiculous even in the name, it obviously is someone trying to catch attention by puting that name. Where are the "studies"?
Reason and Evidence can be a complete cure for those exhibiting the mild form of GGDD, and this has been ably demonstrated by the rise in Atheism and Secular politics ever the last 200 years following the Enlightenment.
Wait... then where is the difference between having the gene or being simply wrong if it can be cured with evidence? Being stupid is genetic and it can't be cured, if that's what you are talking about.
More serious cases are now being looked into for possible lobotomies, and other surgical interventions.
Porque en mi barrio todos somos así, dialogantes, solidarios, transigentes, en fin: buena gente. Y recuerda, si lo niegas... te doy una hostia.
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TSBU
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Re: Re:

Post by TSBU »

wikipedia is not a study... and this is there

Scientific criticism[edit]
In the brain, VMAT2 proteins are located on synaptic vesicles. VMAT2 transports monoamine neurotransmitters from the cytosol of monoamine neurons into vesicles. PZ Myers argues: "It's a pump. A teeny-tiny pump responsible for packaging a neurotransmitter for export during brain activity. Yes, it's important, and it may even be active and necessary during higher order processing, like religious thought. But one thing it isn't is a 'god gene.'"[2]

Carl Zimmer claimed that VMAT2 can be characterized as a gene that accounts for less than one percent of the variance of self-transcendence scores. These, Zimmer says, can signify anything from belonging to the Green Party to believing in ESP. Zimmer also points out that the God Gene theory is based on only one unpublished, unreplicated study.[3] However Hamer notes that the importance of the VMAT2 finding is not that it explains all spiritual or religious feelings, but rather that it points the way toward one neurobiological pathway that may be important.
thedoc
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Belinda wrote: My reply to Immanuel:
As to method I taught my students and pupils according to their individual needs as all decent teachers do.
You'll have been limited by what they provided you, and by what you were legislated or contracted to do. That's the reality for all teachers.
Belinda, If you were able to determine what their individual needs were, then you must have been in a "special" school. I taught Jr. High shop, (metal shop to 8th and 9th graders) in the public schools for 7 years in the early 70's, and my students were not ready to tell me anything. In fact during one back-to-school night one of the parents asked why I wasn't teaching advanced soldering techniques, he was a plumber and expected me to teach his son things that he didn't already know. What the parent failed to comprehend is that I had many students who had never soldered before at all, and I had to start from the beginning for them, and it was Jr High, not High school or Vocational school.
thedoc
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by thedoc »

Belinda wrote:Immanuel Can wrote:
The data. Reality. The truth. Logic. Science. These are all good filters, each in its own department.

People have all kinds of "feelings" and perceptions about things, but they're often very wrong. The way we know is because they fail to conform to reality, to logic, to data or, in short, to the facts.

Ironically, sticking to these things isn't motivated by lack of caring about what people think, feel or want to believe; it's motivated by caring about what actually happens to people. That's why people who really care prefer facts to opinions.
__________________________________________

Of course I agree with you. I've been trying to persuade Gustav(Is he in this forum?) that there are facts.

You failed to answer my question the answer to which matters a lot to people who seek facts.

I asked you how you separate facts from falsehoods in human affairs.This knowledge is more than commonsense and needs to have been taught to all those people who earn their livings chasing after facts. I could tell you but I want to hear it from you if you know.
If I might offer, one way to determine the facts is to observe reality, as it is. To illustrate this, once in 1980 I got into an argument about the color of a yield sign on the Pa. highways. The 3 other people in the room insisted that the yield sign was yellow and black because that was what is illustrated in the Pa. drivers handbook. I had observed a new red and white yield sign in 1965 on an exit ramp of the Pa turnpike and later found out that PENNDOT had been replacing them since 1965 with the new version. These 3 other people failed to see what was in front of them for many years, so how do you expect anyone to observe reality as it is.
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Greta
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by Greta »

Immanuel Can wrote:
It's ultimately just biological diversity made problematic by the stigmas imposed by still-patriarchal societies that neurotically enforce gender roles.
This is nothing but Liberal propaganda language, without a hint of truth in it, I'm afraid. Examine the facts.
"Liberal propaganda language"? You have basically claimed that there's no patriarchal elements to western societies, as though culture thousands of years old simply disappears entirely in fifty years.

Then you claim to be helping transpeople? You really are a shameless liar. Can you see that? You know in your heart that you have zero interest in transgender welfare or the welfare of any other brand of queer person. You are just trying to impose Christian ideology on others by interfering with their private lives.

This is about Christians exerting power and control over one of the few things they can control now that corporations have taken control of just everything but people's private lives (and are increasingly intruding too - power is seductive, be it religious or not).

So don't waste my time any more. If you are purely a Christian ideologue without a single original thought in your head, ready to dismiss legitimate concerns with idiot clichés like "Liberal propaganda", then go away and leave me alone. Leave the forum alone. Leave anyone alone who doesn't want their mind muddied with the static of Christian ideology and Republican slogans.

As you will have gathered, I have had enough of this topic and of you. I'm disappointed with your refusal to even try to see reason, to admit that your one rogue expert organisation (run by Christians) is clearly at odds with the views of the vast majority of experts in this area. I see an equivalence in the climate change debate, where experts hired by fossil fuel companies run a contrary line.

I thought the others on the forum here were being too hard on you, too aggressive. I thought it might be anti-Christian prejudice. I now see that they have just been reacting to your manipulative disingenuousness in pushing cliched Christian ideas as though they are something new. I know I'm a bit slow but I usually get there eventually. I will not make the mistake of taking you seriously again.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Greta wrote:"Liberal propaganda language"?
Yep.
You have basically claimed that there's no patriarchal elements to western societies, as though culture thousands of years old simply disappears entirely in fifty years.
No I have not. I specified "for women under 30." There was a time, some decades ago, when men had more of a hand in things, and more advantages, no question. But those days are done and gone, it would seem. Just go look at the plight of young men today, and compare it with all the advantages of young women. You can't miss it. Even those Feminists I listed for you couldn't miss it. But you have to look at the facts.
Then you claim to be helping transpeople? You really are a shameless liar.
And you would know this...how? :D
...go away and leave me alone. Leave the forum alone. Leave anyone alone who doesn't want their mind polluted by Christian ideology and Republican slogans.
I'm not a Republican. I'm also not a Democrat. As for being a Christian, yes I am: but there's nothing else I can be but what I am, so you'll just have to do the best you can.

You do have the right to go if you want to, of course. On the other hand, public forums you can't take with you. So I'll be around.
As you will have gather, I have had enough.

I have gather that. :wink:
thedoc
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by thedoc »

Greta wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote:
It's ultimately just biological diversity made problematic by the stigmas imposed by still-patriarchal societies that neurotically enforce gender roles.
This is nothing but Liberal propaganda language, without a hint of truth in it, I'm afraid. Examine the facts.
"Liberal propaganda language"? You have basically claimed that there's no patriarchal elements to western societies, as though culture thousands of years old simply disappears entirely in fifty years.

Then you claim to be helping transpeople? You really are a shameless liar. Can you see that? You know in your heart that you have zero interest in transgender welfare or the welfare of any other brand of queer person. You are just trying to impose Christian ideology on others by interfering with their private lives.

This is about Christians exerting power and control over one of the few things they can control now that corporations have taken control of just everything but people's private lives (and are increasingly intruding too - power is seductive, be it religious or not).

So don't waste my time any more. If you are purely a Christian ideologue without a single original thought in your head, ready to dismiss legitimate concerns with idiot clichés like "Liberal propaganda", then go away and leave me alone. Leave the forum alone. Leave anyone alone who doesn't want their mind muddied with the static of Christian ideology and Republican slogans.

As you will have gathered, I have had enough of this topic and of you. I'm disappointed with your refusal to even try to see reason, to admit that your one rogue expert organisation (run by Christians) is clearly at odds with the views of the vast majority of experts in this area. I see an equivalence in the climate change debate, where experts hired by fossil fuel companies run a contrary line.

I thought the others on the forum here were being too hard on you, too aggressive. I thought it might be anti-Christian prejudice. I now see that they have just been reacting to your manipulative disingenuousness in pushing cliched Christian ideas as though they are something new. I know I'm a bit slow but I usually get there eventually. I will not make the mistake of taking you seriously again.
IC, it seems that you have made Greta angry, and she now claims that she will not pay any credence to what you post. Shame on you for trying to make one with extreme bias face reality. I suppose you can't win them all. Pity, in some ways she seemed quite reasonable.
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Greta
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by Greta »

Immanuel Can wrote:No I have not. I specified "for women under 30." There was a time, some decades ago, when men had more of a hand in things, and more advantages, no question. But those days are done and gone, it would seem. Just go look at the plight of young men today, and compare it with all the advantages of young women. You can't miss it. Even those Feminists I listed for you couldn't miss it. But you have to look at the facts.
This shows how blinkered you are. Do you know who is oppressing those young males? It's not women - it's older people (the vast majority being male) who are oppressing everyone. Then, rather than accepting the actual oppressors, certain types of Christians choose to do a little of their own oppressing of even more disempowered groups.
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Greta
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by Greta »

thedoc wrote:IC, it seems that you have made Greta angry, and she now claims that she will not pay any credence to what you post. Shame on you for trying to make one with extreme bias face reality. I suppose you can't win them all. Pity, in some ways she seemed quite reasonable.
Worthless barracking.

Could it be that you are another Christian supporting your Christian friend espousing exactly the same Christian ideologies?

Another Christian robot unable to think for themselves, although they will give you all sorts of post hoc rationalisations to explain why they all came to exactly the same conclusions as Christian hierarchies on the issue, and almost all other issues.

You guys are so ungrounded that you can't see it. I assume that some trauma earlier in life has lead you to the desperation of theistic fantasy that you cling to in the face of all logic and evidence. That would be fine if you didn't then use your delusions as a tool with which to attack the vulnerable and weak under the pretence of "helping".

Just let other people be when you don't know what's going on in their lives. Mind your own business. It's not a lot to ask.
thedoc
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by thedoc »

Greta wrote:
thedoc wrote:IC, it seems that you have made Greta angry, and she now claims that she will not pay any credence to what you post. Shame on you for trying to make one with extreme bias face reality. I suppose you can't win them all. Pity, in some ways she seemed quite reasonable.
Worthless barracking.

Could it be that you are another Christian supporting your Christian friend espousing exactly the same Christian ideologies?

Another Christian robot unable to think for themselves, although they will give you all sorts of post hoc rationalisations to explain why they all came to exactly the same conclusions as Christian hierarchies on the issue, and almost all other issues.

You guys are so ungrounded that you can't see it. I assume that some trauma earlier in life has lead you to the desperation of theistic fantasy that you cling to in the face of all logic and evidence. That would be fine if you didn't then use your delusions as a tool with which to attack the vulnerable and weak under the pretence of "helping".

Just let other people be when you don't know what's going on in their lives. Mind your own business. It's not a lot to ask.
Projecting much?
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Greta
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Re: Is transgender something to get upset about?

Post by Greta »

A quote from another thread that applies here, to save on typing:
It's the same game over and over. A Christian comes here wanting to attack women, women who have abortions, gays or transgenders and then a predictable struggle ensues where all of the usual shit is trotted out. The whole aim is for Christians to keep these topics on the discussion agenda - to never let them rest.

These distractions dominate the boards like weeds taking over a garden. I deplore the way theists have sucked so much of the creativity and originality out of these philosophy forums. I used to go to an ethics forum and it was overrun by gun lobbyists. You'd think ethics is a broad area, right? Not on that forum once the gun nuts took over - every single thread became a gun debate.

That's what's happened to both philosophy forums I'm on - ever debate is on theistic terms. I'm currently Googling for philosophy forums without any religion. I want to find a philosophy forum where the first sign of religiosity results in banning. Zero tolerance. Just one oasis, just one garden free of theistic weeds and rubbish. I am too easily distracted and find the clutter and constant provocation disorienting and uncentering.

I imagine a forum where all members accept some basic truths that don't have to be revisited and picked part - heliocentricism, evolution, the equivalence of the genders, that extra carbon in the atmosphere causes warming, that human sexual and gender diversity is obviously normal, and so forth. Then, from that base we could avoid revisiting the really, really obvious topics like this one and actually progress - to stimulate ideas we'd not thought of before rather than going in these faulty circles, reiterating rather than learning.
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