How God could fail to convey His message?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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thedoc
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by thedoc »

Actually The Bible is true, it's just that people have fucked up the interpretation.
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Lacewing
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

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thedoc wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:42 pm Actually The Bible is true, it's just that people have fucked up the interpretation.
The Bible IS an interpretation... so it is fucked up.
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:38 pm You claimed that they (Christians) believed contradictory things. And Aristotle told you that that means they aren't believing the same thing at all.

So just listen to yourself and to Aristotle.
Hahaha. You forgot the aspect of "same respect". They may be contradicting each other, but that's not because they are different in being Christian. As your colleague in faith, Attofishpi showed, there is a core Christian belief that all Christians subscribe to.

It took me a long time to tell Attofishpi that sameness and differentness can coexist. If things make two things the same, they are still different, if there exist differences.

Consider this:

You are a human (this is a given, although I have no proof of it; let's suppose it's true.)

I am a human.

We are both humans.

We are different, but you can't deny we are both human.

Christians can be different, but you are denying that anyone else who does not believe what you do is a Christian. I say there can be and there ARE Christians who don't believe what you believe.

We can leave it at this. It proves both of us right: I am right, because you are just one example of many, in which Christians think of their own version of Christianity as the only true one, thus proving that the bible is incoherently written (in parts.) You are right, because from your point of view, you are the only Christian person in this world, and therefore there is no disagreement among Christians as to what the bible teaches.
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

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thedoc wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:42 pm Actually The Bible is true, it's just that people have fucked up the interpretation.
they can only mess up the interpretation if the source document is ambiguously written, which it is, and hence the discussions, "how god failed to communicate his lesson".
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attofishpi
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi »

-1- wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:27 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:50 pm
All Christian faiths believe in the teachings of Christ, and the commandments received by Moses. The message of Christianity as received from the life of Christ and these commandments, make the message of God extremely clear.
So you do believe that Roman Catholicism and Protentantism are equivalent. Their tenets are exactly the same. According to you. Yet they went into war for a number of decades and centuries over who is right and who is wrong in what the bible says.

You, Attofishpi, can't get over the hurdle that yes, there are similarities between Christian faiths, and yet they are different, because there are differences between them.

As a simile to explain: a Tasmanian Devil and a human are both mammals. (Mammal- common factor, like some of the issues in the bible that all Christians follow.) Yet there are differences between a Tasmanian Devil and a human. Much like there are differences in believing what the bible says between Catholics and Protestants. Tasmanian Devils and Humans are different. Catholic Christians are different from Protestants (in their christianity). Yet you insist that they are the same. You equivalently insist that Tasmanian Devils and Humans are the same ("They are both mammals! Much like Catholics and Protestants are the same, they are both Christians! And all Christians are the same!" -- you may be crying.)

This is not even a question of faith... you are having conception problems in comprehending what constitutes sameness and differentness. Two things are the same and identical if they have no differences. If two things are same in some aspects, but are different in other aspects, then they are different. Two Christians are different if they live their lives differently because their Christian faiths tell them to live and believe differently, despite also having common beliefs between the two types.
You have not addressed my statements, and are skirting them with irrelevance. What fickle and often at times, stupid, humans do with the message is irrelevant.

You need to prove that God's message was failed to be conveyed. I am stating that the message from Christ, and the commandments received from Moses (from God) was extremely clear.

The various sects of Christianity and all and any of their subsequent disagreements are simply because humans are rather idiotic and have political motivations, it is NOT the message that is the issue.
thedoc
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by thedoc »

-1- wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:18 am
thedoc wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:42 pm Actually The Bible is true, it's just that people have fucked up the interpretation.
they can only mess up the interpretation if the source document is ambiguously written, which it is, and hence the discussions, "how god failed to communicate his lesson".
Men wrote the Bible based on what God was supposed to have told them but there is no proof that the men writing the Bible did not put their own spin on it. So right from the beginning you have some ambiguity about the source of the Bible.
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

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thedoc wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:18 am
Men wrote the Bible based on what God was supposed to have told them but there is no proof that the men writing the Bible did not put their own spin on it. So right from the beginning you have some ambiguity about the source of the Bible.
There is no proof either way. Whether writer-men put in their own spin or not. Maybe it was them; maybe it was god who is not a good writer. How can you decide that?

If your boss tells you to write something down, you will or not will put in your own spin? If you're a CEO and tell some underling to write something, will you tolerate his own "spin"? Is God not the ultimate CEO to whom you don't sass back? Just a few questions to ponder before you commit to the version that it was the writer-men of the bible who messed up.
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

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attofishpi wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:13 am
The various sects of Christianity and all and any of their subsequent disagreements are simply because humans are rather idiotic and have political motivations, it is NOT the message that is the issue.
This is a nice theory but it does not cut the mustard.

Maybe the different sects have different ideologies because the sect leaders' wives had different colours of hair.

Maybe because they rode different types of camels or donkeys.

Maybe because they prayed to god with different words.

Maybe because some were bald, and some had hair.

There is just one thing in common with them: they all read the bible and that's what had been the basis of their faith. Whether it was a politically inspired difference, or due to camel-donkey rides, or whatever, if the source document was written in a way that tolerated no lee-way in interpretation, then that's what I would have called a good source-document.

All these sects and different Christians can give you rational reasons why they have their versions. They don't quote political differences; they quote the bible and tell you that's why they believe what they believe. This "politically motivated difference" is fiction, pure fiction. If you consider that a mere political motivation is enough to alter the word of God, then isn't that proof that the word of god is not the ultimate word? That it is so weakly worded that alterations are possible?
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi »

-1- wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:34 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:13 am
The various sects of Christianity and all and any of their subsequent disagreements are simply because humans are rather idiotic and have political motivations, it is NOT the message that is the issue.
This is a nice theory but it does not cut the mustard.

Maybe the different sects have different ideologies because the sect leaders' wives had different colours of hair.

Maybe because they rode different types of camels or donkeys.

Maybe because they prayed to god with different words.

Maybe because some were bald, and some had hair.

There is just one thing in common with them: they all read the bible and that's what had been the basis of their faith. Whether it was a politically inspired difference, or due to camel-donkey rides, or whatever, if the source document was written in a way that tolerated no lee-way in interpretation, then that's what I would have called a good source-document.

All these sects and different Christians can give you rational reasons why they have their versions. They don't quote political differences; they quote the bible and tell you that's why they believe what they believe. This "politically motivated difference" is fiction, pure fiction. If you consider that a mere political motivation is enough to alter the word of God, then isn't that proof that the word of god is not the ultimate word? That it is so weakly worded that alterations are possible?
Again you have not addressed my statements, and this time you have realised your argument is lacking basic logic and thus are skirting them with what I can only assume is an attempt at humour.

You need to prove that God's message was failed to be conveyed. I am stating that the message from Christ, and the commandments received from Moses (from God) was extremely clear.

The various sects of Christianity and all and any of their subsequent disagreements are simply because humans are rather idiotic and have political motivations, it is NOT the message that is the issue.
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

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attofishpi wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:37 am
-1- wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:34 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:13 am
The various sects of Christianity and all and any of their subsequent disagreements are simply because humans are rather idiotic and have political motivations, it is NOT the message that is the issue.
This is a nice theory but it does not cut the mustard.

Maybe the different sects have different ideologies because the sect leaders' wives had different colours of hair.

Maybe because they rode different types of camels or donkeys.

Maybe because they prayed to god with different words.

Maybe because some were bald, and some had hair.

There is just one thing in common with them: they all read the bible and that's what had been the basis of their faith. Whether it was a politically inspired difference, or due to camel-donkey rides, or whatever, if the source document was written in a way that tolerated no lee-way in interpretation, then that's what I would have called a good source-document.

All these sects and different Christians can give you rational reasons why they have their versions. They don't quote political differences; they quote the bible and tell you that's why they believe what they believe. This "politically motivated difference" is fiction, pure fiction. If you consider that a mere political motivation is enough to alter the word of God, then isn't that proof that the word of god is not the ultimate word? That it is so weakly worded that alterations are possible?
Again you have not addressed my statements, and this time you have realised your argument is lacking basic logic and thus are skirting them with what I can only assume is an attempt at humour.

You need to prove that God's message was failed to be conveyed. I am stating that the message from Christ, and the commandments received from Moses (from God) was extremely clear.

The various sects of Christianity and all and any of their subsequent disagreements are simply because humans are rather idiotic and have political motivations, it is NOT the message that is the issue.
Attofishpi, I addressed your statement directly and head-on. If you can't recognize that, and you keep reiterating your delusion, that's your problem, not mine.

My claim does not lack basic logic. You only wish so, because it decries the validity of what you stand for. Be like a man, take it like a man. Your dream world has been shattered by logic, which you are FORCED by your emotions to call faulty, since that is your only defence to preserve your dearly held values intact.

You keep saying that the message from god was extremely clear. Not so. Clear to you in one way, clear to someone else a different way. Two different clears or more different clears in the one and same unchanging text means that the text is not clear. Is that clear?

It's true that humans, some humans, are idiots, or idiotic. So God should have accounted for that when he inspired the scriptures to be written. But he did not. So his message was not clear, he failed to communicate clearly. A good communicator knows his audience and writes according to that.
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi »

-1- wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:15 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:37 amAgain you have not addressed my statements, and this time you have realised your argument is lacking basic logic and thus are skirting them with what I can only assume is an attempt at humour.

You need to prove that God's message was failed to be conveyed. I am stating that the message from Christ, and the commandments received from Moses (from God) was extremely clear.

The various sects of Christianity and all and any of their subsequent disagreements are simply because humans are rather idiotic and have political motivations, it is NOT the message that is the issue.
Attofishpi, I addressed your statement directly and head-on.
No you didn't. The entire premise of the thread has STILL not been addressed by you... IT IS:-

You need to prove that God's message was failed to be conveyed. I am stating that the message from Christ, and the commandments received from Moses (from God) was extremely clear.

-1- wrote:If you can't recognize that, and you keep reiterating your delusion, that's your problem, not mine.
There it is, here come the true colours of the shortsighted atheist..the great DELUSION!

-1- wrote:My claim does not lack basic logic. You only wish so, because it decries the validity of what you stand for.
No. The entire point of this thread is whether God has failed to convey 'its' message, and I have yet to see you provide a valid counter argument.

You neither know what I stand for nor have the intelligence to argue against what you presume I do.

-1- wrote:Be like a man, take it like a man.
When you suffer to the point I have where God makes you wish you could simply been crucified for your past indiscretions, then I'll accept you have some 'right' to tell me to "be a man" until then - stick to the argument and stop waffling.

-1- wrote:Your dream world has been shattered by logic, which you are FORCED by your emotions to call faulty, since that is your only defence to preserve your dearly held values intact.
What the fuck are you talking about?

-1- wrote:You keep saying that the message from god was extremely clear. Not so. Clear to you in one way, clear to someone else a different way. Two different clears or more different clears in the one and same unchanging text means that the text is not clear. Is that clear?
Again, therefore address my point above instead of waffling on other tangents.

-1- wrote:It's true that humans, some humans, are idiots, or idiotic. So God should have accounted for that when he inspired the scriptures to be written. But he did not. So his message was not clear, he failed to communicate clearly. A good communicator knows his audience and writes according to that.
Oh, ok. So when a new DVD player or the like is delivered with clear instructions we must still hold the company that wrote the instructions accountable for all the stupid people. I think you might have already rendered yourself within that category.
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

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Attofishpi, you are cornered, and squeal like a cornered rat. I proved what you asked me to prove; you ignored my proof, simply ignored it. You came back with a repeated counter-argument, which was false. Then now you are resorting to calling me stupid and idiotic.

You display the exact response behaviour of a person who feels his basic and most sacred values are threatened.

I can't help you. You are irrational, you don't recognize an argument when you see one, and you call it faulty logic.

You must explain to yourself that if idiots can't use the CD player instructions, and the Bible, then how come also very, very smart men and women read the bible differently. Fine, you got the idiot convention. But how come then that those who are not idiots, but very, very intelligent people, who spent a large chunk of their entire lives on studying the bible, have come up with different interpretations?

You rode the idiot ticket too long. Not everyone is an idiot, and most people who publish and lead others to different interpretations are not idiots, but very smart people. Yet they also read different things in it.

You mentioned this a number of times already, and I replied each time the correct answer that defuses this argument:

"You need to prove that God's message was failed to be conveyed. I am stating that the message from Christ, and the commandments received from Moses (from God) was extremely clear."

I won't be a parrot like you who can't read but repeat the same thing incessantly. I answered this argument irrefutably, and the reason you can't read it, or can't comprehend it, is based on very basic and deep-rooted emotional motivation. I can't get through that, and I am going to give up trying. You are too... how shall I put it... biased on the side of your faith, and your bias disables you to see facts, and logic. That is what I called your delusion, not because I wanted to insult you. It is a delusion, to not see reality when it is presented to you.

Sorry. I can't give you insight because your emotions refuse to accept it.

--------------

On another note: you won't convince me, because your logic has been defeated by mine, and I won't convince you, because of your blindness to logic dictated by your devotion to your faith.

But this is not about you and me. You failed to see even an argument, and I can't make you see it.

This will be and has been most likely, observed by many people, this debate. Those who were theists, are not convinced by my arguments. Those who are atheists, are not convinced by your argument (or rather, by your emotional plea) and won't be convinced by Immanuel Can's arguments, as they are not logical either, to the strength that he denies many Christians' christianness. He may be right, he may be wrong, but he has not convinced me. By declaring that only his version is the true Christianity, he supplied one more instance to my argument. He also managed to insult billions of other Christians by arbitrarily excluding them. So Immanual Can is not on a Christian-popularity contest either, by excluding many Christians arbitrarily. I asked him to show that his opinion is not arbitrary, when I asked him to present what his definition of a Christian is, and he simply refused -- this says something. It tells me that he is cowardly, he is not willing to stick his neck out, lest his definition be proved insufficient. He is plainly a coward about this.

But there is a third group: the undecided. The ones that are teetering entering theism, from the atheism side, and those who are teetering on the theist side, thinking about joining atheism.These are the only people who can judge the argument, not you, not me, not Immanuel Can, this argument between us. If they listen to reason, then they will be on my side. If they don't listen to reason, then of course it is undetermined whether they will be on your side or mine.

This is why this debate has been so important. And by throwing temper tantrums and by insisting on a falsehood that I hadn't answered your argument, and your being altogether illogical, is not going to help your case for the undecided at all.
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by attofishpi »

lol. I won't bother reading that drivel. You have neither the capacity for logical debate nor the skills of basic comprehension.
thedoc
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by thedoc »

-1- wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:26 am If your boss tells you to write something down, you will or not will put in your own spin? If you're a CEO and tell some underling to write something, will you tolerate his own "spin"? Is God not the ultimate CEO to whom you don't sass back? Just a few questions to ponder before you commit to the version that it was the writer-men of the bible who messed up.
I was in a similar situation working as a draftsman and was assigned to work on some drawings for an overhead crane. The cranes carriage rode on fanged wheels that ran on rails. The engineer and the other draftsman had gone to a lot of trouble to find the exact rail to be used and specified on the drawing the center to center distance for the rails. I called the engineer and said the proper method was to specify the gauge and not worry about anything else. The engineer got upset and told me to get off the job, he later apologized and said I was correct in how the drawing should be dimensioned. So yes, I would tell my boss if I thought that his wording was wrong and I would tell him the correct wording.

Many people will tell you that the Bible says there was a global flood but I think that Noah, standing on the deck of the ark could see the Horizon about 30 miles away and any mountain would have been far enough away to not be visible, and if there had been clouds the mountains could have been obscured form view. So according to what Noah could see from the deck of an unpowered boat, "all the world was flooded".
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Re: How God could fail to convey His message?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

35 pages of debating a fantasy, dear Lord im not reading this shit.

How could God fail to convey his message?
Because he obviously doesn't exist, people who do not exist cannot send messages.


also, the doc, i dont want to hear your stupid ad homs to me, please leave me alone.
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