Why is God perfect?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Necromancer
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Why is God perfect?

Post by Necromancer »

Here's one version for it:
God has to be perfect for there to be something to separate Heaven and Hell, where Heaven represents soul-completeness, also after Purgatory, and Hell represents moral failure, a fundamental lack in performance.

Heaven can be said to be perfect because otherwise nothing principal would separate Heaven from Hell. If Heaven has to be (soul-)perfect (by compliance to the 10 Commandments and possibly by finishing the Purgatory) then its true master, God, has to be perfect as well.

Please, remember that the 10 Commandments are consistent with sanity-Golden Rule. To live in the name of Jesus is to live by the Golden Rule is to live by the 10 Commandments.

Also note how the 10 Commandments require cognition. Moral blindness belongs to Hell.

Comments? Thoughts? Your version? Welcome. :)
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Lacewing
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Re: Why is God perfect?

Post by Lacewing »

I don't have a belief in a god or heaven or hell... however I've gotten the sense that all is perfect when all of our judgments and separations are eliminated. We are the ones who divide (and separate) things into categories, and define (and judge) them as good and bad. But definitions and judgments (and ideas of gods) VARY depending on all sorts of things, so it would seem that ULTIMATELY there is no single correct view or "limited perfection" within all of it. Rather, there is the completeness/totality of what IS... and we get to play and create with that however we may. When we consider that, "all that IS", WITHOUT our imagined judgments and separations, then it would seem to be perfect.

That's what your topic brought to my mind... even though I know it's a bit different than the path you defined. :)
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Harbal
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Re: Why is God perfect?

Post by Harbal »

I would say a rough definition of perfection is for a thing to be, in every possible respect, exactly what it is supposed to be. Is this the definition that we are using here when we apply the term to God? If it is, I wonder exactly what God is supposed to be.
sthitapragya
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Re: Why is God perfect?

Post by sthitapragya »

Necromancer wrote:Here's one version for it:
God has to be perfect for there to be something to separate Heaven and Hell, where Heaven represents soul-completeness, also after Purgatory, and Hell represents moral failure, a fundamental lack in performance.

Heaven can be said to be perfect because otherwise nothing principal would separate Heaven from Hell. If Heaven has to be (soul-)perfect (by compliance to the 10 Commandments and possibly by finishing the Purgatory) then its true master, God, has to be perfect as well.

Please, remember that the 10 Commandments are consistent with sanity-Golden Rule. To live in the name of Jesus is to live by the Golden Rule is to live by the 10 Commandments.

Also note how the 10 Commandments require cognition. Moral blindness belongs to Hell.

Comments? Thoughts? Your version? Welcome. :)
Why wouldn't hell need to be perfect too? How could a perfect being make an imperfect hell? He might not be the master of hell, but he certainly created it. So unless heaven and hell are both perfect, God would not be perfect.

However, if heaven and hell are both perfect, and the only criterion for separation between heaven and hell were the perfection of the former and the imperfection of the latter, then nothing would separate the two.

If the perfection of heaven is the true criterion for God to be perfect and if a separation between heaven and hell is the true criterion for heaven to be perfect and there was no separation between the two, then heaven would not be perfect and its true master would not be perfect either.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is God perfect?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Necromancer wrote:Here's one version for it:
God has to be perfect for there to be something to separate Heaven and Hell...
I'm not familiar with this idea.

So "Heaven" and "Hell" would pre-exist God, and the necessity of His existence would be derivative from theirs? :shock: Very strange....which tradition are you drawing that from? :?
Purgatory
...is Catholic. The place is not either generally Christian, nor even mentioned in the Bible. Are you working from some sort of Catholic-type tradition? It doesn't look quite Catholic either... :?
Please, remember that the 10 Commandments are consistent with sanity-Golden Rule. To live in the name of Jesus is to live by the Golden Rule is to live by the 10 Commandments.
This would then be a version that draws on elements of a quasi-Christian tradition, but would not itself be Christian? For Christians do not believe that moral-self-improvement is the way to "live in the name of Jesus." So it's...I don't know...what?
Comments? Thoughts? Your version? Welcome. :)
I'm not sure whether you're drawing on a particular kind of "New Age" quasi-Christian tradition I have never encountered before, or reconstructing your account from fragments of ideas you've drawn from different places. It looks a bit to me like maybe the latter...but you've got all sorts of mixed bits in one bag there. :? It's not correspondent to any Theist tradition I know.

I recognize that there are theological arguments for Divine Perfection, but they're not the ones you draw on here. For example, the idea of pre-existing opposites is more Taoist than reflective of any conventional kind of Theism. If two principles "cause" or "justify" the existence of the god, then the god in question is not the First Cause or Supreme Being...and that would mean you were outside of Western Monotheisms at least.

You could maybe identify the tradition you're trying to replicate...and then maybe they could speak to it for you. I doubt anybody would want to 'own' the package you've put together for them...unless you're referring to some real tradition I've never encountered yet. That might get your discussion off the ground faster.

Hope this helps.
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Necromancer
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Re: Why is God perfect?

Post by Necromancer »

Immanuel Can wrote:I'm not familiar with this idea.

So "Heaven" and "Hell" would pre-exist God, and the necessity of His existence would be derivative from theirs? :shock: Very strange....which tradition are you drawing that from? :?
No, it's rather a biconditional relationship, God can be known by Heaven and Heaven can be known by God, however, I merely derive the perfection of God from the grace and perfect place of Heaven.
...is Catholic. The place is not either generally Christian, nor even mentioned in the Bible. Are you working from some sort of Catholic-type tradition? It doesn't look quite Catholic either... :?
I know the Catholics have made it so, but I like it and I believe it despite coming from the Evangelical-Lutheran tradition of Christianity. I also view the Purgatory logical as mild sins should not make it Hell, but punishable still, therefore the Purgatory.
This would then be a version that draws on elements of a quasi-Christian tradition, but would not itself be Christian? For Christians do not believe that moral-self-improvement is the way to "live in the name of Jesus." So it's...I don't know...what?
Isn't forgiveness a part of the new gospel, that with Jesus, if you work to achieve redemption you may still enter Heaven because of your sacrifice and repentance?
I'm not sure whether you're drawing on a particular kind of "New Age" quasi-Christian tradition I have never encountered before, or reconstructing your account from fragments of ideas you've drawn from different places. It looks a bit to me like maybe the latter...but you've got all sorts of mixed bits in one bag there. :? It's not correspondent to any Theist tradition I know.
I can go with ""New Age" quasi-Christian tradition", I can go by "Deism-Christianity", I can go by Evangelical-Lutheran Christianity. One label or the other, I don't care very much. However, I do believe in an All-Good-God and the Heaven of Goodness where no evil can exist!
I recognize that there are theological arguments for Divine Perfection, but they're not the ones you draw on here. For example, the idea of pre-existing opposites is more Taoist than reflective of any conventional kind of Theism. If two principles "cause" or "justify" the existence of the god, then the god in question is not the First Cause or Supreme Being...and that would mean you were outside of Western Monotheisms at least.

You could maybe identify the tradition you're trying to replicate...and then maybe they could speak to it for you. I doubt anybody would want to 'own' the package you've put together for them...unless you're referring to some real tradition I've never encountered yet. That might get your discussion off the ground faster.
Well, well, alright. What's your version/core beliefs of Christianity? Surely, the 10 Commandments are central to the Christian belief all over the World (for good reasons)! Surely, even if the child-rapist/torturer "sings" of Jesus Christ that doesn't "buy" him/her Heaven! Good? :)
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the input. Helpful indeed. :D
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HexHammer
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Re: Why is God perfect?

Post by HexHammer »

Necromancer wrote:Here's one version for it:
God has to be perfect for there to be something to separate Heaven and Hell, where Heaven represents soul-completeness, also after Purgatory, and Hell represents moral failure, a fundamental lack in performance.

Heaven can be said to be perfect because otherwise nothing principal would separate Heaven from Hell. If Heaven has to be (soul-)perfect (by compliance to the 10 Commandments and possibly by finishing the Purgatory) then its true master, God, has to be perfect as well.

Please, remember that the 10 Commandments are consistent with sanity-Golden Rule. To live in the name of Jesus is to live by the Golden Rule is to live by the 10 Commandments.

Also note how the 10 Commandments require cognition. Moral blindness belongs to Hell.
Clueless person, if that was really so, why do he have to destroy his own creations all the time, just look to 1st genesis.

Why could Noah argue with God? Because God's plan was flawed.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Why is God perfect?

Post by Arising_uk »

Why aren't you on a Theology site?

As here we wonder what 'God' you are talking about?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why is God perfect?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Necromancer wrote:Isn't forgiveness a part of the new gospel, that with Jesus, if you work to achieve redemption you may still enter Heaven because of your sacrifice and repentance?
I can't speak about the tradition you name...a form of Lutheranism, is it? I wouldn't have recognized it as evangelical, though.

The general evangelical position is that salvation is "not by works that we have done," (Titus 3:5) and "by grace...through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works..." (Ephesians 2:8-9). The evangelical concept is that one gives up on hope of self-perfection, and instead accepts that one is going to need the intervention of God to make you any better than you are, and his sacrifice, not yours, to balance the scales of justice.
Well, well, alright. What's your version/core beliefs of Christianity?

Surely, the 10 Commandments are central to the Christian belief all over the World (for good reasons)!
Actually, not so much so. I just got through talking with someone else about this. He had a hard time believing me, since it's such a common idea people have. But you'll observe that few Christians today are strict Sabbatarians, for example, which puts them out of commandment #3 or 4 (depending on how you're numbering). But they'd probably be fine agreeing with "You shall not steal," or "You shall not commit adultery," and certainly on "You will have no other gods." The whole law...well, Jewish authorities number the commandments at 613, rather than a mere 10. The 10 are just the "biggies." And many of these laws have to do with very specifically Jewish traditions -- regulations for eating and clothing, and so on. From an evangelical perspective, the Big 10 Commandments are good, and are highly regarded by many traditions; but they were first addressed specifically to the Jewish nation.

In contrast, the New Covenant perspective, is this: "...by the deeds of the Law, no one will be justified in [God's] sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20) Salvation is a matter of giving up on making oneself good, and instead embracing the answer God Himself provides (a la John 3:16).
Surely, even if the child-rapist/torturer "sings" of Jesus Christ that doesn't "buy" him/her Heaven! Good? :)
Christianity views the situation the opposite way...it's not that respectable people deserve heaven and child-rapists do not; it's that nobody can actually be good enough to deserve heaven. Rapists and, say, god-haters, greedy folks, liars, thieves and so on...it's just a matter of degree. We've all got a little of that in us, don't we? And if a few are daring enough to do evil, and the rest are only bold enough to have those sorts of evil desires in secret, well, who is really better anyway?

But it doesn't matter. From a Biblical perspective, everybody's a sinner. And you probably realize that the apparently-respectable can be secretly as prurient, nasty and proud as anybody. In fact, when Jesus Christ walked the Earth the biggest problems he had were not with the prostitutes and traitors, but rather with the people who were highly regarded as religious authorities, and felt they actually needed no help being worthy of heaven (There's a neat story about that in Matthew 21:28-32. It's worth a look, if you've never had the chance to see it: you can google it easily.)

So Jesus was not particularly enthused about people who thought they'd made the grade by themselves. As I suggested above, it's by God's grace that anyone at all is saved, because, as the Bible says, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus...(Romans 3:23-24).

So that's a short take on what I can tell you about evangelical Christianity, at least with regard to the differences from the other tradition framing your question.

Happy to help. I hope you get interesting feedback on the topic. :D
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Re: Why is God perfect?

Post by Necromancer »

Matthew 21:28-32
Good. But with this, let's "celebrate",
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

13Therefore take up the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you will be able to stand your ground, and having done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness arrayed, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness of the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18Pray in the Spirit at all times, with every kind of prayer and petition. To this end, stay alert with all perseverance in your prayers for all the saints. 19Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, divine utterance may be given me, so that I will boldly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may proclaim it fearlessly, as I should.
- The Armor of God - Ephesians 6:10-20, also a good story! :D Cheers!
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