god given free will and kidnapping

[sthitapragya]

Okay, then: if I understand your view correctly, your supposition is that if there are ultimate consequences, then there cannot be freedom. But it seems to me you also think there are consequences for everything a person does...you've said so yourself, several times now, in connection with how you hope to derive subjective morality.

I do not see any way for you to reconcile those two positions. It looks like your concept of "freedom," when combined with your claim that natural consequences follow from every action, simply makes any "freedom" impossible -- regardless of whether or not a Supreme Being exists. That is, unless, as I suspect, your definition of freedom is itself the problem.

They are not a punishment. They are a consequence.

"Punishment" was your word. I neither used it nor believe it is apt. I was with you, on "consequence." It's quite enough if consequences are not good, either here or in eternity.

He did not take my agreement. He gives me nothing in exchange.

Well, I might ask, then, do you continue to breathe oxygen? Have you limbs? Does the sun still come up for you in the morning? Can your eyes see this message, and have you fingers to type a response? How they could you imagine God has done nothing for you? Surely we would be the most ungrateful of all creatures if we did not acknowledge even the basic blessings God has given us.

And if God gave you all these blessings, and many others, and in His goodness provided you with an Earth to live on and life to live, what would be unreasonable about saying that he expected you to use your opportunities wisely, kindly and rightly? In fact, would he not be negligent if He did not do so?

Moreover, what if He also provided a way so that you, even though you had made wrong or selfish or destructive decisions (supposing you had) you could be restored to a good relationship with Him and be blessed even more? And what if He, in fact, took the "punishment" due to you on Himself, so that the demands of justice were fully met in your case, but then freely offered you forgiveness and reconciliation?

Would you take it?

Or, on the other hand, would you shake your fist at God? And if you did, would you expect anything but that He would honour your "agreement" and let you go your own way?

Free will. You have it. How you use it is not constrained, though of course consequences always follow any decision we make. It's up to you what consequence you choose. Both are available.

Don't use half the quote. Try again.

[Immanuel Can]

[quote="sthitapragya"
Don't use half the quote. Try again.[/quote]
Your full quotation is posted above. You know that. You can find it, I'm sure.

If you tell me what you think was important that I excised, and I'll be happy to address it.

[sthitapragya]

Don't use half the quote. Try again.

Your full quotation is posted above. You know that. You can find it, I'm sure.

If you tell me what you think was important that I excised, and I'll be happy to address it.

All of it.

[Immanuel Can]

If you tell me what you think was important that I excised, and I'll be happy to address it.

All of it.

Really? Everything in there was pure gold? You meant every word? Are you happy if I hold you to the absolute letter of what you said? You don't want any benefit of the doubt that maybe you didn't mean every single syllable?

Okay, if you want it that way...I would prefer to be more charitable, but you can have what you ask for from now on.

Sure you want it?

[sthitapragya]

If you tell me what you think was important that I excised, and I'll be happy to address it.

All of it.

Really? Everything in there was pure gold? You meant every word? Are you happy if I hold you to the absolute letter of what you said? You don't want any benefit of the doubt that maybe you didn't mean every single syllable?

Okay, if you want it that way...I would prefer to be more charitable, but you can have what you ask for from now on.

Sure you want it?

You are not a judge. I ddin't appoint you one. Try again.

[Immanuel Can]

You are not a judge. I ddin't appoint you one. Try again.

Refer to other strand for reply.

[sthitapragya]

You are not a judge. I ddin't appoint you one. Try again.

Refer to other strand for reply.

Nope. If you have the guts. try to reply and use my whole reply the next time. Oh and a Christian named Phil X seems to think that the Sabbath rule applies to Christians. So maybe you can discuss how you subjectively decided that it does not apply to you. Refer to the thread, " are all believers in God automatically Idol worshippers?"

[Immanuel Can]

Nope. If you have the guts. try to reply and use my whole reply the next time. Oh and a Christian named Phil X seems to think that the Sabbath rule applies to Christians. So maybe you can discuss how you subjectively decided that it does not apply to you. Refer to the thread, " are all believers in God automatically Idol worshippers?"

There's your entire message, for what it's worth.

If you have the guts.

Ah. The old irrational technique of "shoot the messenger" again. Still dodging the message. "Be a maaaaaan."

Phil X can talk to me if he wishes. I'm sure he knows.

Next.

[sthitapragya]

Nope. If you have the guts. try to reply and use my whole reply the next time. Oh and a Christian named Phil X seems to think that the Sabbath rule applies to Christians. So maybe you can discuss how you subjectively decided that it does not apply to you. Refer to the thread, " are all believers in God automatically Idol worshippers?"

There's your entire message, for what it's worth.

If you have the guts.

Ah. The old irrational technique of "shoot the messenger" again. Still dodging the message. "Be a maaaaaan."

Phil X can talk to me if he wishes. I'm sure he knows.

Next.

Applies to you too. Copy and paste my replies and reply to them if you have the guts. Otherwise, I will take you on again the next time you screw up.

[Immanuel Can]

Applies to you too. Copy and paste my replies and reply to them if you have the guts. Otherwise, I will take you on again the next time you screw up.

See other strand.

[attofishpi]

Yeah well we all know you are bat-shit crazy.

You think i am bat-shit crazy, but i KNOW ALL atheists are wrong.

QED. You are crazy

Youve proved nothing about me.

ALL of wo\man have been warned. What i know about God leaves me far from believing much in the way of 'its' love.

All the paedophile rapist and murderers are the biggest fools on this planet as God looks for reason to reincarnate lives to serve as the beast...you were warned, i hope you've been good.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Choice and free will are synonymous. One has the choice, the free will, to do anything they want, despite the consequences.

That seems right to me.

If people choose to believe in a god, and choose to believe he shall smite them for making the wrong choice, while at the same time insisting he's giving them free will, then he's no god, instead a devil, a demon!

Not a great argument. Let's illustrate by just changing the terms:

"If a child knows that his parent shall punish her for making the wrong choice,
Please make up your mind, is it a him or a her?

while at the same time insisting he's giving her free will, then he's no parent, instead a devil, a demon!"
Apples and oranges my friend! I'm sorry that you seem so confused!


Or, "If a citizen knows that a criminal-court judge will sentence him to life in prison for making a particular wrong choice, while at the same time allowing that citizen free will, that judge is no judge, instead a devil, a demon!"
Same here!


I'm not seeing it....
No, obviously you didn't understand it! There is a big difference between knowing the rules and disobeying, and not knowing the rules and disobeying; what?

[SpheresOfBalance]

It has made me fully aware beyond a shadow of doubt that it exists. It has told me very little about itself - one thing however was that Jesus is the Christ.

From 19yrs of experience of 'it' i concur that it is 'omni-' however - it doesnt know all of the future - as it or the sage indicated to me two days ago.

Yeah well we all know you are bat-shit crazy.

You think i am bat-shit crazy, but i KNOW ALL atheists are wrong.

Yeah atto, you know because you see things from your god in pictures and numbers, yet you have a serious problem with the word "coincidence," such that you only find that which you want to find. In essence, you have made your god, in the image of your perceptions limitations, just like all the rest!

[attofishpi]

Yeah atto, you know because you see things from your god in pictures and numbers, yet you have a serious problem with the word "coincidence," such that you only find that which you want to find. In essence, you have made your god, in the image of your perceptions limitations, just like all the rest!

I know God exists from 19yrs of direct interaction with it.
How many times do i have to explain to dimwits like you, that my artwork and website was for your benefit in relation to comprehending God not mine..as yes i saw a lot of strange quirks and coincidences in the nature of reality that could and should be expressed.

God\sage is directing me at the moment to continue doing art...for some reason.

The site in question.
Beyond Reasonable Doubt? http://www.androcies.com