Reflex wrote:Ken, having a "view," which you do say you have, entails belief.
Of course I say I have a view. Every person gains 'a perspective', a view, of Life from what the body has previously experienced and is also experiencing in the present of NOW. These views or perspectives are always being gained. At every waking moment they are being formed and changed, and by the way much more so when a person is truly open. Anyway, these gained perspectives actually influence how a person will then view, look at, and 'see', understand, the 'world' around it, Life. For example, imagine a child who, by no fault of their own, lives in a world that has always told that they
must believe (in) something. That person grows up into an adult, and through the five sense, that child/adult has never experienced anything contrary to
'they must believe (in) something', so that person actually now believes that all we human beings need to have and maintain beliefs. Then one day that person is told that actually all new born babies come into life without any beliefs at all and that they function perfectly normal, i.e., they are able to learn from the world around them without having any beliefs whatsoever, in fact they can actually learn some things far easier, quicker, and simpler than an adult who has and maintains beliefs can. Then imagine this person actually thinks about that. After thinking about this this person then tries to justify the belief that they have held for sometime and want to continue having and maintaining, though that is through no fault of their own making again, but they now say, “Having a “view” entails belief”. Now imagine if this person, who is still trying to hold onto their belief that people need to have beliefs, is asked, “How, exactly, does a person having a “view” necessitate that they must also
have to be having a belief as well? When the truth is ALL human beings naturally look at and see the “world” around them. This looking and seeing happens through the five senses and obviously what was seen naturally just becomes a view. These views obviously always change depending how we are now looking, i.e., from a truly open viewpoint or from already gained views. But just because some of us have a view that, I think, does not necessitate that the view, itself, has to be believed.
Now imagine if you were that person, how would you respond to that question, "How, exactly, does a person having a view entail belief"?
I am NOT saying that having a view does not entail belief. I am just trying to get a better perspective from your point of view.
Obviously what has been viewed forms a basis for how a person then sees things. For example if a person has through the five senses already gained a view that I, and therefore, we MUST believe (in) something, then that WILL effect how they will then look at absolutely every thing. How we look at any or ALL things obviously then influences how we 'see', understand.
The more a view is believed to be true or not true will obviously close off more of a person's ability to look ahead or from now on, which accordingly will then effect how much they are able to 'see', learn, understand, and reason. The less a person believes a view to be true or not true, then the more they are able to see. And obviously if this is true, then if a person has a completely open view and thus coming from a completely open viewpoint, which is obviously what they have if they are neither believing nor disbelieving (in) anything, then they will very easily, simply, and quickly see the Truth of ALL things that they are interested in and as such which are truly meaningful to them.
A person who was already truly open can see what just took place. What happens when people stop holding onto beliefs is they actually open up, which then allows them to see the Truth, of all things, very quickly, simply and easily.
You might be thinking now that “this” is what I believe and thus is a belief I have. If anyone is thinking anything like that, then the Truth is “this” is ONLY what I see. It is just a view I gained, because of my previous experiences, and until proven either way is completely OPEN for 'looking at', viewing, again.
Reflex wrote: I already gave you an example of what looks like a pretty strong belief that you have.
I have tried looking for that example but unsuccessfully, so I am unable to reply to it now. But if you were to mention it again, then we can all see if what “looks” like a pretty strong belief was in fact a belief at all, or if there was something stopping you from looking at it completely openly, and thus see if you were able to see the Truth that it was in fact not a belief at all. The rest is up to you now.
Reflex wrote:That, by itself, invalidates the thrust of everything you say about you not having any beliefs or disbeliefs.
What one person sees, or thinks they see, does NOT validate nor invalidate anything at all. The Truth will come to light when everyone looks from the truly open Mind and thus is able to see clearly and ALL are in agreement. Again we all will have to wait and see if what you see IS actually what you say it looks like AND IS the Truth. Just maybe what you see is being distorted by, let us have a guess, your strongly held and maintained 'belief'.
Reflex wrote:However, you have too much of yourself invested in your belief in your lack of belief and disbelief to to let go easily.
On first glance your sentence here appears to be suggesting that if a person actually does have a belief, then that in of itself prevents that person from letting go and being able to see the Truth. But I must be wrong because having, holding and maintaining beliefs is the very thing you yourself are trying to fight for. You have been insisting that we ALL must have and maintain beliefs. So now I am not sure what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong here. You say and believe that ALL people MUST have beliefs because they are unable to function nor are they able to contribute to society without beliefs BUT they should NOT HAVE to much invested in their beliefs and disbeliefs because those things will actually stop them from letting go easily. So what is it going to be?
Maybe I am not understanding you fully here. What do you mean by “to let go easily”?
Are you saying that if a person has a belief then that will stop them to let go of the belief easily because the Truth may be that that belief is not actually true, right, and/nor correct?
Reflex wrote:Beliefs come in gradations and is not necessarily an assumption of knowledge. That would be a barrier to growth.
I never said beliefs are an assumption of knowledge. I wonder why you would think that?
Reflex wrote:We all have beliefs: openness (not-knowing) is not a lack of belief -- belief provides us with the structure we need in order to function creatively in the world -- but the ability to accommodate new experience and information without prejudice.
Are you absolutely sure that we all have beliefs. Name some of the beliefs ken has, besides the belief in Self that was already told and explained to you earlier. In fact also name ALL the beliefs you say you had as a new born baby.
Obviously not-knowing something is not a lack of belief. If a person does not know something, then that just means they do not know it. EVERY person does not know some thing. In fact EVERY person does not know a lot of things. I might even be able to argue that EVERY person knows and does not know some things equally but I have never thought about that before and will just leave it for now. But I think we could all agree that there is NO one person who knows every thing.
'Openness', just gives a person the ability to learn, understand, and reason anything. Openness allows us all to not be affected by our preconditioning, in order so that we can become wiser. To me openness allows humans true creative spirit to thrive. If people believed we could not do things nor we could not create things, then we would not be the most and only technologically advanced animal. To me beliefs actually prevent and can completely stop imagination coming into fruition. I see in order for every new imagination to then be invented and then be created to the point of it becoming reality comes from openness. I do not see how we need structure in order to function creatively. I see some people believe we need structure in life but this, again is no fault of their own, is because they were trained to think and thus believe in and of a certain way. If a child is continually told, through the five senses, that we need structure, that was in order to enforce authority over others for them to follow. People can not be leaders without follows. Some people want to be leaders. Leaders can not exist without some form of “structure” over others. Human beings do not need structure in their lives, but some people believe they do.
This is how I see what happens, a person/people NEED to believe in their ability to create something. For example human beings would not and COULD NOT have flown to and walked on the moon if they believed it would not and could not happen. ONLY AFTER people started believing that it was possible was when it then became possible. People can not create what they believe is impossible to create. The power of belief is pretty amazing here. Only after people start believing that they can do something is when they start beginning to see how they can make it happen. After they see that they can make it happen then they will go about building and creating it, and then they attempt it and if successful they obviously achieve it. So without the belief in ones own personal self, or for human kind as a whole, in Ones Own Self then no human made thing becomes a reality. No human made thing would be if people did not have a belief in themselves. This applies from the dreaming of the wheel to it coming a reality to the dreaming of flying to the moon and actually landing on the moon coming a reality, that is if human beings did actually fly to and land on the moon. I do not know if they did or not. I was not there first hand so I do not have any real evidence either way. Without first hand evidence then why would I have a belief (in) something, other that what I have just explained about believing in Self and Its ability?
This brings me to my next point of how I see what happens, if a person believes that humans landed on the moon or believes that humans did not land on the moon, then are they are actually NOT able to learn, find, uncover nor discover, and thus NOT ABLE to see the Truth? These types of beliefs are exactly what I say people do NOT NEED to have. I, for one, do NOT HAVE these types of beliefs. They only prevent and distort the actual ability to see the real and only Truth.
'Intelligence', is the ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely anything whatsoever. Only human beings have this ability and this ability is why we have created all we have. No other thing besides human beings themselves have created all the truly amazing things we have. This ability is what separates us from all other animals and any other known species in the universe. However, the stronger a belief is, in anything other besides Our ability, then the more this ability is blocked, while the weaker a belief is the less the less this belief will prevent our true ability from occurring. No beliefs whatsoever on the other hand allow this ability to thrive and flourish fully.
For example, from just being truly open, (and a couple of other things), I discovered that a truly peaceful world was not just possible but actually an extremely easy thing to create. I, unintentionally, came across a formula that shows how this could be come a reality. So, I KNOW how everyone can live in peace and harmony together, eternally. I may KNOW this but I certainly DO NOT believe it will come true. If I did believe, then I would not be open to discovering out how to actually form the words to be able to show this, and just importantly, to show how easy all this is.
Therefore, I do NOT believe in the formula or the process or anything else because any or even ALL of my views could be completely wrong. So I will stay open to that fact, that is until I am proven wrong and shown where and why I am wrong OR when everyone is actually living together in peace and harmony. I, however, could not be wrong in the sense that there is nothing that i say is right. I am open to changing any view I have so what was once a wrong is always able to be changed to a right view. The ability to always change until the right wording is formulated for EVERYONE is what will allow the formula and process to work successfully.
Although, I do NOT believe nor disbelieve in what I see will happen and take place, I do ACTUALLY believe in the Self, in that I WILL find a way to show YOU how a truly eternal peaceful world can and will happen. If I did not have the belief in the Self, that It can do and achieve anything that It truly wants to do and achieve, then I would not be able to show how a truly peaceful is not just a possibility but will soon be reality. If ALL people are working together as One, then that One can make anything happen.
Apologies for drifting off topic with all this other dribble, but hopefully you can see how I differentiate between the one and only belief I think we human beings need to have in order to progressively grow, from the beliefs that I think that we do not just need but are actually a deterrence and could well become our downfall. I say downfall because just look at what has happened when just some people maintain very strongly held religious beliefs and others maintain a very strongly held belief that “We NEED money to live”. This belief just enforces greed, which separates us whilst very strongly held religious beliefs also does the same. Separation has taken us off course, which has led us to where we are now. NO other thing has created what we have for ourselves now. We have created this greedy, separatist "world", whereas, unity will lead us back into and take us back on course leading us all towards peace.
Beliefs or non beliefs AND Self-talk are two very strong and powerful drivers that I think most human beings are just not fully aware of yet.
Whilst just writing this I realized that instead of saying, “I neither believe nor disbelieve...”, I should have be writing, “I do not like to nor want to neither believe nor disbelieve...” I say "I should be saying" it this way because I sometimes catch My self out when I re-read and notice that I have actually written in a way that IS, although unintentionally, a belief. Sometimes I am trying so hard to show that what I only think is right but I come across as though I believe it to be right. I have found that self-talk is something that is best noticed, watched, and monitored continually.
By the way I have already replies to a few more posts, but was unable to sent them yet, and I think i know deeper where you are coming from reflex and dontaskme also, but i will still send them all as i wrote them. Further on you will see that I THINK i know what you are trying to say. If, however, you can see better where I am coming from here, then I am sure total agreement could be reached. Your persistence has is showing me better where you are coming from and i have noticed you have also seen further and deeper into what I am just trying to explain. If and when we can get to the bottom where both of the "right" and "wrong" parts of our views is separated out and we can agree on the right parts, then truth is uncovered and found.