Ten Commandments, Past vs. Present

[Contortionist]

The Ten Commandments were absolutely appropriate for the community that created them but are not appropriate for a modern liberal democracy, why?

The values on which our society are based have been redesigned since biblical times.

The story of the Ten Commandments is still symbolic today as it was the first time, at least for the Judeo-Christian tradition, that the standards of life of humanity were proclaimed.

These moral and virtuous instructions were legitimized to the Israelites by a supposedly divine entity, which was, at the time, the most effective form of political power to gain the obedience of the people.

The contemporary world is based on cultural and ethical relativism. According to cultural relativism, every society must be seen as unique, possessing its own history, language, institutions of law and religion. It suggests, then, that no outside standards can be used to evaluate any society . Furthermore, the position of ethical relativism maintains that concept of morality varies with culture, history or the individual and universal ethics are impossible.

Secularism has led to relegate morality to mere personal preference, and with the widespread recognition of the positions of cultural and ethical relativism, nothing now of religious nature can be a figure of absolute truth.

Without a belief in God, humanity loses its conviction to obey the teachings of a deity that would guarantee an absolute meaning to human life and define morality in the religious sense, and now we must stray away from this thought system to form our own.

[Harbal]

Without a belief in God, humanity loses its conviction to obey the teachings of a deity that would guarantee an absolute meaning to human life and define morality in the religious sense, and now we must stray away from this thought system to form our own.

And what is the meaning to human life that God is guaranteeing?

[Skip]

There is no "we". Those commandments only ever applied to minority of the humans on the planet, even though that minority tried to force their silly commandments on everyone else, without observing their own moral rules themselves. Many still believe in some god - and pretty awful gods they are, too! While others have strict and coherent moral convictions, based on some other principle, and many more are adrift, ready to cheer the next blowhard who sets himself up as their spokesman.

[yiostheoy]

The Ten Commandments were absolutely appropriate for the community that created them but are not appropriate for a modern liberal democracy, why?

The values on which our society are based have been redesigned since biblical times.

The story of the Ten Commandments is still symbolic today as it was the first time, at least for the Judeo-Christian tradition, that the standards of life of humanity were proclaimed.

These moral and virtuous instructions were legitimized to the Israelites by a supposedly divine entity, which was, at the time, the most effective form of political power to gain the obedience of the people.

The contemporary world is based on cultural and ethical relativism. According to cultural relativism, every society must be seen as unique, possessing its own history, language, institutions of law and religion. It suggests, then, that no outside standards can be used to evaluate any society . Furthermore, the position of ethical relativism maintains that concept of morality varies with culture, history or the individual and universal ethics are impossible.

Secularism has led to relegate morality to mere personal preference, and with the widespread recognition of the positions of cultural and ethical relativism, nothing now of religious nature can be a figure of absolute truth.

Without a belief in God, humanity loses its conviction to obey the teachings of a deity that would guarantee an absolute meaning to human life and define morality in the religious sense, and now we must stray away from this thought system to form our own.

There is nothing wrong with the 10 Commandments other than the first 4 of them are not applicable in a secular nation.

#5 (honoring parents) is currently enforced with juvenile law and with boarding schools, but it did not go away.

#6 (murder), #8 (theft), and #9 (perjury) are elements of criminal law.

#9 (adultery/wife swapping) is no longer grounds for divorce in most states unfortunately. It should be grounds for divorce with no alimony or child support.

#10 (covetousness) is a fairly common character fault everywhere.

Judaism and it's laws (including the 10 Commandments) is a very small minority religion in the USA and in the world. They are big enough to get noticed but not big enough to have a proportionate influence other than the key players which are Jewish in several circles, such as news and show business and some of the professions like medicine and law. Certainly not politically.

As far as ethics laws go, the saying of Jesus in Christianity are certainly more popular than the 10 Commandments in the USA. And this is even though the USA is a secular nation with a non-Theist population of about 10%.

[yiostheoy]

There is no "we". Those commandments only ever applied to minority of the humans on the planet, even though that minority tried to force their silly commandments on everyone else, without observing their own moral rules themselves. Many still believe in some god - and pretty awful gods they are, too! While others have strict and coherent moral convictions, based on some other principle, and many more are adrift, ready to cheer the next blowhard who sets himself up as their spokesman.

In Philosophy the issue of God-ness turns upon the classic 4 proofs of God in their modern versions --

- First Cause
- Prime Mover
- Purposeful Designer
- Artistic Artificer

In Philosophy these are speculative and only suggest that some Philosophy God is likely due to the paradoxes that result without One.

In Religion, which is totally separate from Philosophy, there are a dozen major religions:

- Roman Catholicism
- Sunni Islam
- Protestantism
- Eastern Orthodoxy
- Hinduism
- Buddhism
- Confucianism
- Shiite Islam
- Zen
- Tao
- Shinto
- Chinese folk religions
- Atheism

Adhering to one of them is simply a matter of choice. It has nothing to do with the Philosophical issue of God-ness.

[Skip]

And that relates to the commandments - how, exactly?

[yiostheoy]

And that relates to the commandments - how, exactly?

Moses' 10 Commandments were simply 10 things that his 600 clans of Hebrew followers needed to work on the most after their several hundred years jaunt within Egypt.

It says as much about the Egyptians as it does about the departing Hebrews.

Blasphemous speech, idolatry, juvenile truancy, murder, wife swapping, theft, perjury, envy.

[Skip]

I see.

[Greta]

Yes Hobbs, it seems we have a live one here.

There have been so many of these threads - over and over - "you atheists would be immoral if not for religion".

Theists who claim that religion created and maintained morality demonstrate their lack of knowledge of evolutionary biology, a topic many theists studiously avoid. Morality simply emerges naturally from social living and it has been observed in numerous other species.

The idea of 24/7 divine surveillance by a cruel, judgemental and unreasonable deity is efficacious for controlling people's behaviour. Whether threats and fear inspire morality, as opposed to ostensibly moral behaviours, is another matter.

[yiostheoy]

Yes Hobbs, it seems we have a live one here.

There have been so many of these threads - over and over - "you atheists would be immoral if not for religion".

Theists who claim that religion created and maintained morality demonstrate their lack of knowledge of evolutionary biology, a topic many theists studiously avoid. Morality simply emerges naturally from social living and it has been observed in numerous other species.

The idea of 24/7 divine surveillance by a cruel, judgemental and unreasonable deity is efficacious for controlling people's behaviour. Whether threats and fear inspire morality, as opposed to ostensibly moral behaviours, is another matter.

Religion arose/evolved (don't want to piss anybody off with word choice) during pre-history so we do not know how or why.

We know it was used to opiate the masses with, mostly for the benefit of the king or pharaoh.

We know it involved and still involves a lot of guilt.

I am a recovered Catholic myself and the many and various guilt trips of Catholicism no longer control me.

I am happy to be a Philosophical Deist.

I still take Communion at Xmas and Easter, but that's all. I don't want Jesus to think I have completely forgotten about Him. Don't want to hurt His feelings.

[yiostheoy]

Yes Hobbs, it seems we have a live one here.

There have been so many of these threads - over and over - "you atheists would be immoral if not for religion".

Theists who claim that religion created and maintained morality demonstrate their lack of knowledge of evolutionary biology, a topic many theists studiously avoid. Morality simply emerges naturally from social living and it has been observed in numerous other species.

The idea of 24/7 divine surveillance by a cruel, judgemental and unreasonable deity is efficacious for controlling people's behaviour. Whether threats and fear inspire morality, as opposed to ostensibly moral behaviours, is another matter.

I love Lady Philosophers Greta. I have never met one in person so to you go all the honors.

I know some female chess players and they are exciting to play against. I have never been beaten by one but I am masochistic enough that I think I would enjoy the pleasure.

[Skip]

Religion arose/evolved (don't want to piss anybody off with word choice) during pre-history so we do not know how or why.

Actually, through archeology and anthropology, we know quite a lot about pre-civilized religions. In fact, some still operate among native populations that have not been too badly damaged by the conquerors.

We know it was used to opiate the masses with, mostly for the benefit of the king or pharaoh.

That's not totally inaccurate, but neither is it very precises. You're talking here about organized, codified religions with written laws, set rituals and dedicated buildings. That's a big departure from ancestor-worship and animism. The masses were not so much opiated as carrot-and-sticked into compliance. The bribe is eternal life; the threat is eternal oblivion - later replaced by torment, because most of us have no serious objection to oblivion, and the way the RCC allowed serfs to be treated in Feudal Europe, they faced a major attrition of the labour force by suicide.

We know it involved and still involves a lot of guilt.

All social organization relies on guilt and ostracism on one side vs. status and kudos on the other. The trick is harnessing it under an unreachable, unimpeachable and - most important - unassassinatable supreme authority.

I am a recovered Catholic myself and the many and various guilt trips of Catholicism no longer control me.

Good for you! So why fret over the commandments, or anything else in the bible?

[yiostheoy]

Religion arose/evolved (don't want to piss anybody off with word choice) during pre-history so we do not know how or why.

Actually, through archeology and anthropology, we know quite a lot about pre-civilized religions. In fact, some still operate among native populations that have not been too badly damaged by the conquerors.

We know it was used to opiate the masses with, mostly for the benefit of the king or pharaoh.

That's not totally inaccurate, but neither is it very precises. You're talking here about organized, codified religions with written laws, set rituals and dedicated buildings. That's a big departure from ancestor-worship and animism. The masses were not so much opiated as carrot-and-sticked into compliance. The bribe is eternal life; the threat is eternal oblivion - later replaced by torment, because most of us have no serious objection to oblivion, and the way the RCC allowed serfs to be treated in Feudal Europe, they faced a major attrition of the labour force by suicide.

We know it involved and still involves a lot of guilt.

All social organization relies on guilt and ostracism on one side vs. status and kudos on the other. The trick is harnessing it under an unreachable, unimpeachable and - most important - unassassinatable supreme authority.

I am a recovered Catholic myself and the many and various guilt trips of Catholicism no longer control me.

Good for you! So why fret over the commandments, or anything else in the bible?

I actually have my own list of more pertinent 10 commandments which are a combination of my own theophanies and what my parents have taught me plus what I have learned on my own -- no offense to Moses -- but wife swapping and murder have never been my weaknesses:

1 - Keep all the laws of God and man;
2 - Don't kill or hurt anyone except in self defense or national defense;
3 - Never go anywhere unarmed;
4 - Always carry a knife too;
5 - Never hit or hurt a woman or child;
6 - Never play with fire except for cooking;
7 - Watch out in traffic;
8 - Never lie -- if you can't be forthright with the truth then don't say anything at all;
9 - Help others as much as possible;
10 - Leave the Earth a better, cleaner place than you found it.

[Skip]

Share your toys.
Feed my sheep.
Cross with the light.
Be kind to dogs and squirrels.
Clean your own shoes.

All the laws of gad and man? That will paralyze you into permanent inaction. Both of them have made far too many contradictory laws!

How about:
Walk softly, pay attention and do as little harm as possible.
?

[Greta]

Heh, my mother referred to herself as a lapsed Catholic but she still seemed to believe. Basically she wasn't interested in going to church. I was raised C of E and forced to go to Sunday school, which bored me to tears. I was more interested in nature and the skies than old people's myths.

I'll have a go at some commandments:

1. try to be reasonable

2. remember, animals and plants are people too

3. be grateful because there's many doing it tougher than you

4. forgive

5. keep your sense of humour

6. do your bit.