How to exit the religious mess!

[Dontaskme]

Dontaskme wrote:

You are the awareness of the body and the senses and the external world.

Besides awareness of the body, aren't you also the actual body?

You are awareness of the body. The body is not aware, so how can what you are awareness be something that is not aware.

The bodies only existence is because there is an aware knowledge of it. But you are not the knowledge, you are the source of knowledge which is awareness, and awareness is unknown simply because awareness is one without a second...awareness is only known in relation to what it is aware of which is itself of course.

I'm not trying to eliminate you as a body, you cannot be eliminated, you are, without you there is no body...no awareness of body means nothing, and there is no such thing as nothing as you may well know.

You probably abandoned your nonduality study days because of lack of understanding it, this is common, it's very difficult for the mind to grasp it, some people spend their entire life never understanding it...most give up trying...can't say that I blame them really.

But please know this is no reflection on any one here just because they don't get it...the the most important thing to remember is there is nothing to get anyway, it's got you, and you are so loved and precious.

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[Arising_uk]

But can you find this concrete thing that knows that?..where is the knower of that knowledge?

We're it.

Do you not see a big gaping hole in the argument?

Sorry, bit slow, so no. Please explain.

And who is this ''we'' that claims such knowledge, are they the little tin foiled hat people who think they know what's actually going on?

Every parent, farmer or pet owner knows such things.

[Dontaskme]

Not really, it's to watch something being born and to watch something die, can I take it that you've seen neither?

You are projecting an idea that there is someone separate from you who is born and who dies...there is not and I've explained this many times to you, but you do not see it.

Have you as the watcher ever seen you the watcher being born or dying? ....No of course not....the watcher can only see what comes and goes in it, as reflected projected appearances in it. There is nothing outside of the watcher but what itself is reflecting back to itself....can the seen ever be separated from the seer? there is only the seer watching it's reflections come and go ..while it the seer / watcher does not come and go. It's without birth and death...simply because it cannot watch it's own birth or death...THERE IS NO ROOM TO MAKE THAT APPROACH.

This is what I'm talking about ..I'm talking about the watcher, the witness, the awareness.

Can the watcher watch itself being born? can it watch itself die...the answer is No.

The watcher can only watch it's reflection of being born, and of dying through it's own projected image of itself aka other....which is only ever it's one same self.




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[Dontaskme]

But can you find this concrete thing that knows that?..where is the knower of that knowledge?

We're it.

We're not a thing, we are the knower of the thing, that cannot be known.

And who is this ''we'' that claims such knowledge, are they the little tin foiled hat people who think they know what's actually going on?

Every parent, farmer or pet owner knows such things.

No, these are concepts, a parent doesn't know anything, it is an already known concept of this immediate knowing awareness. That which is known can't know anything, it only exists as an idea in awareness.

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[Dontaskme]

It's not the body that experiences itself, the body is not aware...so how can a body that is not aware experience itself?

I told you, you are not paying attention to your body as the body is aware of many things, for example, next time you are sitting become aware of how the body moves to ease discomfort before you are aware of it.

If I am able to become aware of my body moving before I the body am aware of it...then I must precede the body action of moving in the chair.

I must be the awareness of the action not the action itself?

I don't understand how you say the body is aware of many things?

When I think of the body, I think of a the flesh and bone ...how can flesh and bone be aware?

It's like if I cut off my arm...does that arm itself know it's been cut off?

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[Arising_uk]

You are projecting an idea that there is someone separate from you who is born and who dies...there is not and I've explained this many times to you, but you do not see it. ...

No, I'm positing the idea that I am a body that is born, ages and dies and that when it dies so do I.

Have you as the watcher ever seen you the watcher being born or dying? ....No of course not....the watcher can only see what comes and goes in it, as reflected projected appearances in it. There is nothing outside of the watcher but what itself is reflecting back to itself....can the seen ever be separated from the seer? there is only the seer watching it's reflections come and go ..while it the seer / watcher does not come and go. It's without birth and death...simply because it cannot watch it's own birth or death...THERE IS NO ROOM TO MAKE THAT APPROACH.

This is what I'm talking about ..I'm talking about the watcher, the witness, the awareness....

I thought you said there is no 'watcher' so what are you talking about?

Can the watcher watch itself being born? can it watch itself die...the answer is No.

Really, what are you talking about?

The watcher can only watch it's reflection of being born, and of dying through it's own projected image of itself aka other....which is only ever it's one same self.

Are you talking about us here or some 'God' of yours?

[Arising_uk]

If I am able to become aware of my body moving before I the body am aware of it...then I must precede the body action of moving in the chair. ...

Try it. The next time you notice your body shifting check if you moved it.

I must be the awareness of the action not the action itself?

You can be, you can also be the action that moves it.

I don't understand how you say the body is aware of many things?

The senses are continuously receiving information and only some of it needs to come to the notice of the attention.

When I think of the body, I think of a the flesh and bone ...how can flesh and bone be aware?

That is just one of the subsystems the others are the endocrine and CNS(there could be more I'm not sure how far Biology has gone now) and they make up the body.

It's like if I cut off my arm...does that arm itself know it's been cut off?

Yes, but it's the CNS which is why you get phantom limb syndrome.

[Dontaskme]

I thought you said there is no 'watcher' so what are you talking about?

There is no ''separate'' watcher. There is only watching watching itself.

[Arising_uk]

We're not a thing, we are the knower of the thing, that cannot be known.

We are a thing, it's called a body.

No, these are concepts, a parent doesn't know anything, it is an already known concept of this immediate knowing awareness. That which is known can't know anything, it only exists as an idea in awareness.

"immediate knowing awareness" what is one of these when it's at home?

[Dontaskme]

We're not a thing, we are the knower of the thing, that cannot be known.

We are a thing, it's called a body.

Things are ''thoughts'' ... You are aware of the thought something, something that is itself not a thought.

[Dontaskme]

It's like if I cut off my arm...does that arm itself know it's been cut off?

Yes, but it's the CNS which is why you get phantom limb syndrome.

You've avoided the question.

Is the severed arm aware of itself?

You said the body is aware, if that is true, then the severed arm will know it has been severed...don't forget the arm is now detached from the CNS...how is that arm aware now it is detached from the rest of the body...?


Here, is it seen that parts can never be aware, there is only ever wholeness aware of it's parts.

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[Dontaskme]

"immediate knowing awareness" what is one of these when it's at home?

The apparent gap between the views that 'I am this person' and 'there is no person' cannot be bridged by thought. The insight that there is 'no one there' is prior to thought and thought, however eloquent, logic and refined can never reach 'prior to thought'.

[Dontaskme]

Try it. The next time you notice your body shifting check if you moved it.

If I didn't move my body then it cannot be my body.

I am the non-moving awareness of the body moving in me.

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[Dontaskme]

If I am able to become aware of my body moving before I the body am aware of it...then I must precede the body action of moving in the chair. ...

Try it. The next time you notice your body shifting check if you moved it.

I must be the awareness of the action not the action itself?

You can be, you can also be the action that moves it.

I cannot be the action itself, actions are one unitary movement, so there are only reactions, as awareness becomes aware of what happened after it has already happened.

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[Dontaskme]

Are you talking about us here or some 'God' of yours?

No, looking with the mind within the mind will turn up more mind/thought. The mind is the 'dual dividing knife' ..clarity is the 'non-dual glue'.... much simpler than the mind can imagine. Not something known, but the unknowable knowing in which every some-thing arises and dissolves.

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