How to exit the religious mess!

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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surreptitious57
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by surreptitious57 »

Dontaskme wrote:
what I think about the world is not the reality of the world. Thoughts are not reality the belief in the
thoughts is what make us believe reality to be a certain way when it is not since thoughts are not real
Thoughts about the world are an interpretation of it and so are not always true but sometimes they are
And they are real in the sense that they exist and can be experienced even though they cannot be seen
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Dontaskme
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

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surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:36 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
what I think about the world is not the reality of the world. Thoughts are not reality the belief in the
thoughts is what make us believe reality to be a certain way when it is not since thoughts are not real
Thoughts about the world are an interpretation of it and so are not always true but sometimes they are
And they are real in the sense that they exist and can be experienced even though they cannot be seen....

.....and that which cannot be seen but appears to be.. is therefore an illusory mirage appearing real.
Belinda
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote:
You definitely said awareness was not present in dream sleep...I said it was in both dream state and waking and that it was the same one awareness... you did some introspection....and so did I...so which is truth...your introspection or mine?

Just being sceptical about your findings that's all.....I'm doing what people do to me, accuse me of not having evidence when they don't even have their own evidence.
Yes, I did. You raise an interesting point about the value of introspection in investigations of conscious awareness. I don't think that anyone could investigate conscious awareness unless they could introspect for a start. I submit that introspection is necessary for investigating conscious awareness but it's not sufficient.
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Arising_uk
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

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Dontaskme wrote:I studied that all the knowledge I studied in the past that I thought to be real was in fact not real or true, it was illusory knowledge, ...
I really have no idea what you mean here, what do you mean by knowledge? Can you give me an example of the kind of knowledge you are talking about that you had and then thought not real.
and that the only real true thing here is the awareness of knowledge which is just PASSING THOUGHTS...unique to the human condition only.
Sorry, I'm not meaning to be dense but can you describe what you mean here when you say the word "thought".
By watching thoughts come and go and realising I am not my thoughts, so what I think about the world is not the reality of the world. ...
Well I do keep telling you, you are a body with senses in an external world, thoughts are memory combinations of the representations that the body gives you of this world. Although I think you wrong as what you think(although I'm still not sure what you mean by "think" here, do you differentiate between a 'thoughts' and 'thinking'?) about the world is the reality of that world to this body and it most certainly is real about that world otherwise you and the squirrel wouldn't run up the same tree when the wolves are around.
Thoughts are not reality, the belief in the thoughts is what make us believe reality to be a certain way when it isn't since thoughts are not real. ...
I'd have thought a belief was a thought?

Sorry, what do you mean by 'thoughts are not real'? As they are the representations from the senses of the real world.
The research was to search for the one who believes it exists as a separate person living inside my head, I searched and couldn't find that person, and realised the person was just a thought that comes and goes, while I always stay..that ''I stay'' was the realisation that I was the pure unchanging, non-moving awareness, aware of the thoughts that come and go, and that only the awareness of thought was real, not the thought. ...
How did you achieve such a state, what techniques did you use?

From my point of view it was a mistaken search as you are a body not a thought and that is why there is always this 'staying', at least until the body dies that is.
The source of all this research was this immediate silent presence in which everything arises and falls.
You sound like you are talking about experience without the internal voice?
surreptitious57
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by surreptitious57 »

Dontaskme wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:
what I think about the world is not the reality of the world. Thoughts are not reality the belief in the
thoughts is what make us believe reality to be a certain way when it is not since thoughts are not real
Thoughts about the world are an interpretation of it and so are not always true but sometimes they are
And they are real in the sense that they exist and can be experienced even though they cannot be seen
and that which cannot be seen but appears to be .. is therefore an illusory mirage appearing real
Something can still be real without it being seen because sight is only one sense
As long as something can be experienced in some way then it is taken to be real

Thinking that thoughts are not real is a thought and so is that thought then not real
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Dontaskme
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:09 pm
Yes, I did. You raise an interesting point about the value of introspection in investigations of conscious awareness. I don't think that anyone could investigate conscious awareness unless they could introspect for a start. I submit that introspection is necessary for investigating conscious awareness but it's not sufficient.
So why did you enter the discussion?

Was there any particular reason?

As far as I can see there is no knowing of any knowledge about anything without AWARENESS

So awareness is just about all there is to discuss really.

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Dontaskme
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme »

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:54 pm

Something can still be real without it being seen because sight is only one sense
As long as something can be experienced in some way then it is taken to be real

Thinking that thoughts are not real is a thought and so is that thought then not real
Yes, I understand, but I mean the thought that there is a ''separate you'' is just a thought that is not real. Lets be straight on what is being pointed to here.

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Dontaskme
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme »

Arising_uk wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:34 pmI really have no idea what you mean here, what do you mean by knowledge? Can you give me an example of the kind of knowledge you are talking about that you had and then thought not real.
Knowledge is knowing you exist.

In truth, nothing knows it exists.

Therefore, this knowing you exist knowledge is an illusory addendum upon original not-knowing reality.

An example : would be when you were in your mothers womb, you existed but you didn't know you existed. The knowledge that you existed came when you became aware of yourself through the knowledge of yourself....so you see, it was not you that was born, it was the knowledge of you that was born, and knowledge is a superimposed reality upon original not-knowing life living itself. Life is unborn because it's without beginning nor end.

...beginnings and endings are energetical thoughts arising in this Unborn Presence...they are of no significance or have any location, they are pure Dreamscape.

Life is a dream dreamt by no one. You are only in relation to you are not.

The other truth is that it's all very real where there are separate people with beliefs about how things are so believe what you want, it's your reality you are making up.



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Dontaskme
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme »

Arising_uk wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:34 pmWell I do keep telling you, you are a body with senses in an external world, thoughts are memory combinations of the representations that the body gives you of this world.
You are the awareness of the body and the senses and the external world.
The body and the senses and the external world are appearances in you, for without you there is nothing.

Where is the body and the senses and the external world in deep dreamless sleep?
You as awareness are present in deep dreamless sleep, you are always here, you are never not here, you are this ever present silence awareness aware of all phenomena passing in, as, and through you, even when the thoughts of the body and the senses and the external world are not present in you in deep dreamless sleep, you still are because you are awareness.

Awareness cannot experience itself as an object, because it is not-a-thing...objects are only known by it...aka via knowledge, inseparable from the unknown knowing.

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Dontaskme
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme »

Arising_uk wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:34 pmI'd have thought a belief was a thought?

Sorry, what do you mean by 'thoughts are not real'? As they are the representations from the senses of the real world.
The thought ''I am a separate person'' and there is an external world outside of me is not real. The external world cannot be outside of you because where ever you go, there you are, you cannot step into an outside world, the external world is in your consciousness, you cannot experience it directly, because awareness cannot experience itself as an object, it is only that which is aware of an object.

Try it and see for yourself, try stepping out into the external world.



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Dontaskme
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme »

Arising_uk wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:34 pm
From my point of view it was a mistaken search as you are a body not a thought and that is why there is always this 'staying', at least until the body dies that is.
What you are can't die, it was never born, and that's the really good news.

There is no bad news.

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Dontaskme
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Dontaskme »

The source of all this research was this immediate silent presence in which everything arises and falls.
Arising_uk wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:34 pmYou sound like you are talking about experience without the internal voice?
Yep, that's it, I AM... but I AM nothing without my knowledge...and what I AM is not my knowledge...for I AM ALWAYS with or without it.

.

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Belinda
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote:
So why did you enter the discussion?
The "so" in your question is the slang version of 'so' which I regret has become popular.

Anyway, I entered the discussion because it was there, and you showed a capability.
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Arising_uk
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Arising_uk »

Dontaskme wrote:Knowledge is knowing you exist.

In truth, nothing knows it exists. ...
Poor old Descartes than.
Therefore, this knowing you exist knowledge is an illusory addendum upon original not-knowing reality. ...
This syllogism would be true if it wasn't for the fact that this "In truth, nothing knows it exists." is false as we quite clearly know we exist.
An example : would be when you were in your mothers womb, you existed but you didn't know you existed. The knowledge that you existed came when you became aware of yourself through the knowledge of yourself.... ...
Actually no, this knowledge comes about when you become aware that others exist.
so you see, it was not you that was born, it was the knowledge of you that was born, and knowledge is a superimposed reality upon original not-knowing life living itself. ...
If you assume that you are your body then you were born, if you assume that you is the you of thought and language then for sure this is not born until the body develops enough to reason.
Life is unborn because it's without beginning nor end.
This 'Life' you use is a reification as there is no 'Life' just living things and they pretty much all begin and end.
...beginnings and endings are energetical thoughts arising in this Unborn Presence...they are of no significance or have any location, they are pure Dreamscape.
Pure make believe.
Life is a dream dreamt by no one. You are only in relation to you are not.
'Life' is a reifictaion, it doesn't exist.
The other truth is that it's all very real where there are separate people with beliefs about how things are so believe what you want, it's your reality you are making up.
Which you aptly demonstrate.
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Arising_uk
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Re: How to exit the religious mess!

Post by Arising_uk »

Dontaskme wrote:You are the awareness of the body and the senses and the external world. ...
Not quite, I am the awareness that the body and senses produce of the external world.
The body and the senses and the external world are appearances in you, for without you there is nothing.
Except for an external world that is.
Where is the body and the senses and the external world in deep dreamless sleep?
What do you think is sleeping?
You as awareness are present in deep dreamless sleep, you are always here, you are never not here, you are this ever present silence awareness aware of all phenomena passing in, as, and through you, even when the thoughts of the body and the senses and the external world are not present in you in deep dreamless sleep, you still are because you are awareness.
You appear confused, the body is pretty much never quite asleep even in dreamless sleep, in fact all sleep is dreamless as dreams occur in the period between not quite awake and not quite asleep, this is why there is no you being aware in dreamless sleep as that function is off.
Awareness cannot experience itself as an object, because it is not-a-thing...objects are only known by it...aka via knowledge, inseparable from the unknown knowing.
Awareness is the object experiencing itself as the body is the object.
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