Faith

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Faith

Post by thedoc »

ReliStuPhD wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote:For someone who claims to be "relistuphd," you're really not. You're on the money again. Astutely put. :)
Thanks. As I've said elsewhere, I think it's important to accurately represent a position, even if one disagrees with it (or, in my case, is yet to be (re)convinced by it). After all, how else does one disprove Xianity? ;)

That has been one of the basic problems with those who try to disprove Christianity, first they claim some version of Christianity that is mostly off base, and then disprove that. Usually I completely agree with what they say because few if any have accurately stated my particular set of beliefs, or what Christianity actually teaches, mostly because I am still formulating my beliefs. So if I state something and you disagree, please say so, it might help me crystallize my own beliefs.
User avatar
ReliStuPhD
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:28 pm

Re: Faith

Post by ReliStuPhD »

thedoc wrote:So if I state something and you disagree, please say so, it might help me crystallize my own beliefs.
Absolutely. For what it's worth, I didn't have you in mind at all.
thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Faith

Post by thedoc »

ReliStuPhD wrote:
thedoc wrote:So if I state something and you disagree, please say so, it might help me crystallize my own beliefs.
Absolutely. For what it's worth, I didn't have you in mind at all.

I know, but I've been following this thread and thought this was a good time to make that point.
thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Faith

Post by thedoc »

The other point is in regards to the discussion about disagreeing or not believing in God and suffering eternal damnation, there are some in the Christian religion who are Universalists, in that they believe that everyone will go to heaven. I know that there are several different uses of the term Universalism but I am referring to only one, for now. Years ago most of these people would only state that belief in private and would deny it in public, and so far the people I know of are members of the Lutheran clergy. It seems to be more acceptable lately.

Also the term Purgatory is sometimes used as a euphemism for hell in the sense that sinners are purged of their sin and unrighteousness before entering heaven. This could be an aspect of the Universalist doctrine.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22498
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Faith

Post by Immanuel Can »

A couple of interesting things about Universalism.

It's often supposed, by its proponents, to be a charitable view. After all, it's...universal. Everybody wins, right? Or at least, everybody gets to spend the appropriate time in Purgatory, and then everybody wins.

But a couple of things it does not do. First, it means that relationship with God is no longer necessary from the human perspective. Whether we know God -- or even want to know God -- and whether we have any trust in His goodness, His character and His love, we all end up in the same place: Purgatory being a temporally short stop on the way to a future state so infinitely long that all time periods are infinitely minuscule by comparison.

Secondly, it disrespects our wishes. If I express contempt for God, if I claim I don't believe in Him, if I mock the implications of His very existence, and flippantly dismiss His love, if I spit at people who believe otherwise and trumpet my defiance to the skies... Then at the end of all that, it won't make a difference. It's forcible Heaven for all, a compulsory relationship with the One for whom we have publicly declared we want to have nothing but hatred and contempt. (For that matter, Hitler, Stalin and Mao would be charter members of Universalist Heaven.)

Thus universalist Heaven disrespects the essential relationship from two sides. In regard to God, it says, "You must live forever with those who don't want you." Toward mankind, it says, "You must live forever with the One you hate."

Neither is granted any choice. And there is a word for forcible relationship...
thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Faith

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote:A couple of interesting things about Universalism.

It's often supposed, by its proponents, to be a charitable view. After all, it's...universal. Everybody wins, right? Or at least, everybody gets to spend the appropriate time in Purgatory, and then everybody wins.

But a couple of things it does not do. First, it means that relationship with God is no longer necessary from the human perspective. Whether we know God -- or even want to know God -- and whether we have any trust in His goodness, His character and His love, we all end up in the same place: Purgatory being a temporally short stop on the way to a future state so infinitely long that all time periods are infinitely minuscule by comparison.

Secondly, it disrespects our wishes. If I express contempt for God, if I claim I don't believe in Him, if I mock the implications of His very existence, and flippantly dismiss His love, if I spit at people who believe otherwise and trumpet my defiance to the skies... Then at the end of all that, it won't make a difference. It's forcible Heaven for all, a compulsory relationship with the One for whom we have publicly declared we want to have nothing but hatred and contempt. (For that matter, Hitler, Stalin and Mao would be charter members of Universalist Heaven.)

Thus universalist Heaven disrespects the essential relationship from two sides. In regard to God, it says, "You must live forever with those who don't want you." Toward mankind, it says, "You must live forever with the One you hate."

Neither is granted any choice. And there is a word for forcible relationship...

It is my understanding that Christianity and other similar religions insist that humans have free will during their life time. So far as I can tell that means that while we are alive we can freely choose to have a relationship with God, because a relationship that was not freely chosen is of no value. However I have found no reference that states anything about free will after death. Is it possible that free will is only for the living and the dead have no choice? In some religions the soul is joined with God in death, so there is no individual to make a choice and free will is a meaningless concept.
User avatar
ReliStuPhD
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:28 pm

Re: Faith

Post by ReliStuPhD »

(I can never seem to find the passage where I would expect it, so perhaps this is a mis-attribution, but...)
Nicolas Berdyaev writes (in Destiny of Man) that, given a sufficiently long expanse of time, God's love wins over even the hardest of hearts. Berdyaev leaves Hell as almost a state of mind rather than an ontology, suggesting that even Hitler, Stalin, Mao... Lucifer will one day understand truth and will see their way into Heaven. The way he's put it is that God will not claim victory until all souls have been redeemed. It's always had a certain appeal for me (even now, as an apostate) in that it respects free will even as it acknowledges the power of God's love. I've not heard Universalists speak of it, but perhaps they should.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22498
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Faith

Post by Immanuel Can »

I have found no reference that states anything about free will after death. Is it possible that free will is only for the living and the dead have no choice?
Yes, I think so.

Now that isn't necessarily troubling. We're not much in favour of marriage in our days, it seems (at least not the permanent kind), but there is a useful analogy there. When a couple pledges themselves to one another in marriage, presumably they both understand that they are saying they are at least hoping to have found the last person they're going to need to be with. In fact, with dewy-eyed idealism they often swear that they will love no other, ever, and be faithful always, and so on.

I have not noticed that in making such a commitment couples are so much worried about their loss of freedom than perhaps about their ability to see the thing through. In any case, though, there are a lot of brave words about "forever" in a wedding ceremony.

So presumably one could choose to be with someone permanently, but instead of feeling imprisoned thereby, could feel love, security and belonging instead...and really not mind so much that the freedom to run away from one's parter or to play the field would thereby be lost. It seems that people expect that the marriage relationship ought to be somehow freeing rather than merely binding -- something that fulfills rather than deprives.

If that's right, there wouldn't seem to be anything necessarily unpleasant or unfair if choice were a temporary option, and the ensuing relationship permanent.
In some religions the soul is joined with God in death, so there is no individual to make a choice and free will is a meaningless concept.
Right. Take Buddhism, for example. In it, one achieve Nirvana, which amounts to soul-extinction and the total dissolution of one's individual identity forever. Free choice would clearly not even be a category available in that equation. I think free choice can probably only be made by someone who has a personal identity, don't you?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22498
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Faith

Post by Immanuel Can »

God's love wins over even the hardest of hearts.
It certainly has that ring of niceness in it...but what about freedom, then? Is there really any genuine possibility of choosing to love or not to love God?

Or are the UltraCalvinists essentially right: that God...whether in the short term or the long...simply bulldozes our wills and makes us do the right thing? And if that's how it plays out, what do we mean when we talk about our "loving" God? For ultimately, then, we then have no contribution to make to the relationship; it's no longer a two-sided assent of "lovers," but rather the one-sided control of the Divine Despot, our "love" being merely an illusion of choice.

Or is there another way to see that?
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5688
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Faith

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

raw_thought wrote:I have never understood why faith is a virtue. Suppose I am a child and live with my brother (who is also a child). We are the only people that live in the house. Everyday, criminals break into our house,beat us up and take our stuff. My brother says that I must have faith that our father is alive and in the attic. He also says that he is silent and never leaves his room for our own good. Unfortunately, we do not know the reason. However we must have faith that there is a reason. Decades go by. One day Dad leaves the room and says to my brother, "both of you are good boys. However, your brother never believed in me. Therefore he will be tortured for eternity."
Is Dad insane? Is God insane?
No, only the belief in such a god is insane!
thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Faith

Post by thedoc »

There was a TV production of the Mahabharata that was several hours long, and in the final scene the oldest brother ascends to Heaven and discovers that his enemies in life are there but his family is not. He demands to go to hell to see his family and is granted the request. I believe that this too was finally revealed to be a test by God, but it's been a long time since I watched the program.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5688
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Faith

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

thedoc wrote:There was a TV production of the Mahabharata that was several hours long, and in the final scene the oldest brother ascends to Heaven and discovers that his enemies in life are there but his family is not. He demands to go to hell to see his family and is granted the request. I believe that this too was finally revealed to be a test by God, but it's been a long time since I watched the program.
A test huh? :lol:

I would think the greatest test of all is how one treats anothers life. First and foremost, physically, with mentally following close behind. All else is poppycock!
thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Faith

Post by thedoc »

SpheresOfBalance wrote: A test huh? :lol:

I would think the greatest test of all is how one treats anothers life. First and foremost, physically, with mentally following close behind. All else is poppycock!

This sums it up, I believe.

Matthew 25:40New International Version (NIV)
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
thedoc
Posts: 6473
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Faith

Post by thedoc »

My wife and I recently celebrated our 37th anniversary, and I was thinking of the above verse when I wrote this on the inside of the card.

"Some people do it for the least,
Some people do it for the greatest,
You do it for me, Thank you."

She liked it.
User avatar
SpheresOfBalance
Posts: 5688
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:27 pm
Location: On a Star Dust Metamorphosis

Re: Faith

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

thedoc wrote:My wife and I recently celebrated our 37th anniversary, and I was thinking of the above verse when I wrote this on the inside of the card.

"Some people do it for the least,
Some people do it for the greatest,
You do it for me, Thank you."

She liked it.
How sweet! :) I think we all should love it, if it weren't for our fears, we would all, both understand it, and love it. Unfortunately some peoples fear precludes understanding it, so unfortunately they'll probably never know it, so how could they ever love it; their envy and fear, finally coming to that point of hating it. Humans often cut off their nose to spite their face, a swirling vortex of internal conflict, firmly embedded in their minds eye. I do pity them! Not that I'm perfect, far from it, but I'm well on course, always trying to achieve it.
Post Reply