LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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chaz wyman
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

Post by chaz wyman »

reasonemotion wrote:I have no experience with drugs, except of course when prescribed antibiotics.
I read about the Marsh Chapel Experiment and would appreciate your opinions, if you feel so inclined.

The Marsh Chapel Experiment

The Marsh Chapel Experiment (a.k.a. "the Good Friday Experiment") was run by Walter N. Pahnke, a graduate student in theology at Harvard Divinity School, under the supervision of Timothy Leary and the Harvard Psilocybin Project. The goal was to see if in religiously predisposed subjects, psilocybin (the active principle in psilocybin mushrooms) would act as a reliable entheogen.
A bit of a circular argument.
Whatever the folly in dubbing a substance an "entheogen", it seems obvious that in people who are 'predisposed' to religion any substance (call it what you will) that provides a further challenge to reason - is likely to further confuse the subject and make them more suggestive to whatever current delusion they are feeling.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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reasonemotion wrote:A friend of mine was found dead in his apartment two weeks ago. He was a habitual user of cocaine. Always in control, had his own successful business, apartment, three Jaguar car. He was dead two days before he was found. I went to his funeral last week. He had taken almost twice the amount thought to be safe. It is obvious cocaine won the deal that day. RIP Chris.
First I'd like to say that I'm sorry for your loss, it's a shame when anyone looses control and dies as a result.

I've tried coke socially, on multiple occasions, and I never sensed it was controlling me, it was no biggy. Maybe it was because I was usually at parties with a lot of distractions going on that I didn't notice. Anyway, one night for the first time ever, I had an 8-ball all to myself, and proceeded to snort it. The thing with coke is that, once one starts coming down, they do another line to take them back up, I did this repetitively until such time that all of it was gone, then naturally I started to come down, of course I wanted to do another line, but there was no more. Because it was gone, I went into a panic, a frenzy of thought, if you will, I realized I was broke until payday, and started to feverishly go through all the things I could sell, so I could buy more coke, thanks to the fact that it had gotten to be like 0300 (3:00 AM). I finally went to sleep, woke up straight and remembered that I had actually contemplated selling my prized possession, my stereo system, I absolutely have loved music all my life. I then saw that coke had controlled me, had defied my rule, my philosophy, my axiom, and said to hell with coke. This is what I'm talking about as far as a drug controlling you. I could plainly see that it's continued use would control me until I had nothing left but my coke, if that. So I stuck with a drug that didn't make me crazy, that I've always enjoyed, that I've always controlled!
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reasonemotion
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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Thank you for your thoughts. You dont understand from the point of view of a person who does not take drugs, who can see the absolute abyss people you love can sometimes travel toward, their toes curled on the edge, snorting another line, to get back that high. I think it is not the "high" that they crave, it is the state of neutrality, their high's are bland scapes, without demands, without stress, a state of freedom from humanity. It is momentary. If we did live in a state of bliss how would that affect this world. Would we wander around aimlessly and would alcohol, tobacco, drugs become obsolete. Would happiness be happiness? as we know it now or would we be bored and discontented.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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reasonemotion wrote:Thank you for your thoughts. You dont understand from the point of view of a person who does not take drugs, who can see the absolute abyss people you love can sometimes travel toward, their toes curled on the edge, snorting another line, to get back that high. I think it is not the "high" that they crave, it is the state of neutrality, their high's are bland scapes, without demands, without stress, a state of freedom from humanity. It is momentary. If we did live in a state of bliss how would that affect this world. Would we wander around aimlessly and would alcohol, tobacco, drugs become obsolete. Would happiness be happiness? as we know it now or would we be bored and discontented.
Not exactly true, as I have not taken drugs all my life, and while I was young, and might not have been able to formulate a well rounded view, i certainly understood the effects of alcoholism, from a non drug user perspective.

I don't think there's anything wrong with making a drug, that one can control, a part of one's happiness, I mean happiness, as with all other emotions, are a result of chemicals in the brain. Again my point is to not be wasted away with drugs, and to only allow them as a peripheral supplement, thus their control. One has to control their food, or they can become unhealthy, obese and finally die (overdose).
lancek4
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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chaz wyman wrote:
reasonemotion wrote:"Talking to a friend the other day about computers, he was telling me the story of how the person / people who developed the silicon chip (IBM 'thinktanks' maybe?) were using LSD as their main way of figuring out just how to do this. I think the main development was part of the 'space race' so this mid-late 60's does fit with a massive amount of worldwide LSD use by intillectuals."

Recently watched latest Mad Men Season 5, Episode 6, subject was LSD. I thought Weiner the creator of MM, made light of the effects LSD can have on people. While researching this, I came upon the above and wondered if in the 1960s LSD was as widely and commonly used, not for recreational purposes (for want of a better word) but for the purpose of invention as stated above.
The story is bogus.
You can't invent anything using LSD. Some drugs like cannabis are claimed to enhance music playing. From my experience it ruins rhythm and so playing drums is shit. But you know this when you play back - and you realise it only makes you THINK the music is better. What is 'better' ? Precision in music to me often sound lame. Music can be like building a house and I can appreciate good construction, but when it comes to music , jimi Hendrix is better than Metallica. Don't get me wrong. Metallica is good and highly accomplished in ability, but I'd put thier precise music lower on the scale of better. Anyone can practice and get 'better' at something. I'm more impressed with a natural.
LSD, especially in the large doses taken in the 60s tends to make you incapable of any organised activity requiring a process or co-operation.

I will say that in general the social and personal step you take when you decide to flaunt convention (and the law) and take responsibility of your own body out of the hands of the state and into your own hands, as well as the expansion of mental horizons that drugs provides can make you a much better and self-defining person (as long as you are not the addictive type), is to be recommended and can provide your creative juices more latitude when you are straight - or straighter.
So drugs can be good; they definitely can give you a wider perspective on life.
is digital sound better than an old scratchy record ? Sometime. Classical music for sure. But often enough it takes away more than it gives. We are caught in the 'faster, high def' hype. Such bs based on making more money. Conned.


Ahh that felt good. I need a beer now.
Last edited by lancek4 on Sun May 06, 2012 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
lancek4
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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It is a fallacy to generalize intoxication in any way as to ability. Exception is the rule. Everyone now days seems to like 'same'. Because same is the best way to make lots of money. I would submit that hardly one great thing has come about by one who was entirely sober. Everyone gets intoxicated. Everyone. LSD cannot be separated out from history. When one gets high on something he does not come back down, one just adjusts to that state.
It is ones attitude going into intoxication that is evidenced in what is achieved while intoxicated. Whole histories have occurred while whole civilizations were perpetually drunk because fresh water was rare. It is our present bias that classifies intoxication as it does. And the problem goes with it.

It would not surprise me if steve jobs was on LSD when he came up with his 'vision'.
chaz wyman
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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lancek4 wrote:
chaz wyman wrote:
reasonemotion wrote:"Talking to a friend the other day about computers, he was telling me the story of how the person / people who developed the silicon chip (IBM 'thinktanks' maybe?) were using LSD as their main way of figuring out just how to do this. I think the main development was part of the 'space race' so this mid-late 60's does fit with a massive amount of worldwide LSD use by intillectuals."

Recently watched latest Mad Men Season 5, Episode 6, subject was LSD. I thought Weiner the creator of MM, made light of the effects LSD can have on people. While researching this, I came upon the above and wondered if in the 1960s LSD was as widely and commonly used, not for recreational purposes (for want of a better word) but for the purpose of invention as stated above.
The story is bogus.
You can't invent anything using LSD. Some drugs like cannabis are claimed to enhance music playing. From my experience it ruins rhythm and so playing drums is shit. But you know this when you play back - and you realise it only makes you THINK the music is better. What is 'better' ? Precision in music to me often sound lame. Music can be like building a house and I can appreciate good construction, but when it comes to music , jimi Hendrix is better than Metallica. Don't get me wrong. Metallica is good and highly accomplished in ability, but I'd put thier precise music lower on the scale of better. Anyone can practice and get 'better' at something. I'm more impressed with a natural.
LSD, especially in the large doses taken in the 60s tends to make you incapable of any organised activity requiring a process or co-operation.

I will say that in general the social and personal step you take when you decide to flaunt convention (and the law) and take responsibility of your own body out of the hands of the state and into your own hands, as well as the expansion of mental horizons that drugs provides can make you a much better and self-defining person (as long as you are not the addictive type), is to be recommended and can provide your creative juices more latitude when you are straight - or straighter.
So drugs can be good; they definitely can give you a wider perspective on life.
is digital sound better than an old scratchy record ? Sometime. Classical music for sure. But often enough it takes away more than it gives. We are caught in the 'faster, high def' hype. Such bs based on making more money. Conned.


Ahh that felt good. I need a beer now.

None of what you say is meaningful or relevant to what I was talking about.

An individual on drugs thinks he music sounds better whilst the is ripped.

This says nothing about the objective quality of one musical form over another.

As for the vinyl digital debate, I was re-aquainted with my record collection a couple of weeks ago and so decide to buy a deck to transfer some of the rarer albums to digital.
Need I really say which is better? Years ago I used to accept scratches and crackles, now they are just bloody annoying. Even after going to the trouble of meticulously copying Men at Work's two albums I still wanted to rip those tunes from Spotify.
lancek4
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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Your implication was that one who is high thinks he is sounding good but is actually not. The study you refer to rated for precision, as if this is 'better'. It supported the agenda that drugs are bad by attacking an arena that typically glorifies the good qualities of drugs : music and art.
lancek4
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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....but in some cases it is so true: take for example Yoko Ono ! Omg talk about free drug expression.


But yeah the scratching and pops do get annoying. But there are taped of bands I'd rather hear on my tapes , but then other music ...well hell.
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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lancek4 wrote:Your implication was that one who is high thinks he is sounding good but is actually not. The study you refer to rated for precision, as if this is 'better'. It supported the agenda that drugs are bad by attacking an arena that typically glorifies the good qualities of drugs : music and art.
Unless I've missed something he does not site a study, he merely sited his own experience. And I agree that ones experience is subjective, as my father got all disoriented and couldn't find his way home, after partaking. I on the other hand have no problem. From what I've read it has to do with both dopamine and serotonin. Certain people are predisposed for what ever reason, to have a greater ratio of one over the other. This lends to the differing effects, as pot increases serotonin levels. For instance, I also play a set of drums, and guitar, also have a keyboard but only use it currently for finding melodies, and riffs, and my recordings often sound better when I was playing high. High for me has always allowed me to push boundaries of fatigue while playing, which would normally cause me to tire, and fizzle out. So I see drug usage subjectively effecting output, and that no blanket statement (generalization) holds any water.
chaz wyman
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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lancek4 wrote:Your implication was that one who is high thinks he is sounding good but is actually not. The study you refer to rated for precision, as if this is 'better'. It supported the agenda that drugs are bad by attacking an arena that typically glorifies the good qualities of drugs : music and art.
This is not only based a dozens of anecdotes but from personal experience.
The guitarist in my band has found cannabis useful for his creativity, but the lessons learned have to wait until he is straight before he can put it into practice. As for me playing the drums - forget it. Beer in small measures is the only thing that helps.

I have not referred to any "study".
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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For instance Jimi Hendrix was high on LSD during the Monterey Pop Festival in 68, which was his break out introduction in the US, he had been already accepted in England despite being an American. Yet he floored the crowd, arguably out performing The Who, whom he followed. On Parliament Funkadelic's album Maggot Brain, George gave his Guitarist LSD and told him at the beginning of recording to play like his mother just died, then at the end he told him to play like he just found out they had made a mistake and that she was fine. If you've ever heard the album, it sounds awesome, much like Jimi Hendrix.

Drugs are a subjective experience, depending on many variables, as far as effects go, from drug type, dosage, tolerance, quality, etc, to one's own brain chemistry. Crap, I bet that even one's level of hydration plays a small part, and a drummer can have a hell of a time remaining hydrated, depending upon the ambient air temp. Dehydration can lead to dizziness, confusion, and finally passing out.
chaz wyman
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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SpheresOfBalance wrote:For instance Jimi Hendrix was high on LSD during the Monterey Pop Festival

Bullshit.

in 68, which was his break out introduction in the US, he had been already accepted in England despite being an American. Yet he floored the crowd, arguably out performing The Who, whom he followed. On Parliament Funkadelic's album Maggot Brain, George gave his Guitarist LSD and told him at the beginning of recording to play like his mother just died, then at the end he told him to play like he just found out they had made a mistake and that she was fine. If you've ever heard the album, it sounds awesome, much like Jimi Hendrix.

Myths

Drugs are a subjective experience, depending on many variables, as far as effects go, from drug type, dosage, tolerance, quality, etc, to one's own brain chemistry. Crap, I bet that even one's level of hydration plays a small part, and a drummer can have a hell of a time remaining hydrated, depending upon the ambient air temp. Dehydration can lead to dizziness, confusion, and finally passing out.

Irrelevant
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: LSD AND PHILOSOPHY

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chaz wyman wrote:
SpheresOfBalance wrote:For instance Jimi Hendrix was high on LSD during the Monterey Pop Festival
Bullshit.
FACT!

in 68, which was his break out introduction in the US, he had been already accepted in England despite being an American. Yet he floored the crowd, arguably out performing The Who, whom he followed. On Parliament Funkadelic's album Maggot Brain, George gave his Guitarist LSD and told him at the beginning of recording to play like his mother just died, then at the end he told him to play like he just found out they had made a mistake and that she was fine. If you've ever heard the album, it sounds awesome, much like Jimi Hendrix.
Myths
FROM GEORGE CLINTONS MOUTH!

Drugs are a subjective experience, depending on many variables, as far as effects go, from drug type, dosage, tolerance, quality, etc, to one's own brain chemistry. Crap, I bet that even one's level of hydration plays a small part, and a drummer can have a hell of a time remaining hydrated, depending upon the ambient air temp. Dehydration can lead to dizziness, confusion, and finally passing out.
Irrelevant
ABOVE YOUR HEAD!
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