The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
EchoesOfTheHorizon
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:08 am

The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:38 am

I hereby challenge any Solipsistic or Advaitian Non-Dualist to convince me that the world is not real, using the very arguments you use to convince me that I'm merely a figment of your imagination, on yourself.

I'm holding a IPad, typing with my thumbs. What arguments can be given to completely destroy my trust in reality, that I am, but am not this or that, merely observing, a consciousness in a body in a larger world that is not of my own making, that lreexisted me, and will continue on long after you or I die?

I can investigate arguments with you only I exist, but want some convincing arguments. I can also accept arguments only you exist, and I am but a figment of your imagination, but in return I expect to have a lot of privledges, wealth, and sexy women bestowed upon me, some of it borderline.... no, outright fantastical. If you can do this, I will recognize only you exist, if only I exist, I want to know why my imagination sucks so bad so as to imagine you, and if neither of us exist, and only someone else exists, than I want to know what I never seemed to of been informed of this, being the last to know this sort of thing.

OuterLimits
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Post by OuterLimits » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:01 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:38 am
I hereby challenge any Solipsistic or Advaitian Non-Dualist to convince me that the world is not real, using the very arguments you use to convince me that I'm merely a figment of your imagination, on yourself.

I'm holding a IPad, typing with my thumbs. What arguments can be given to completely destroy my trust in reality, that I am, but am not this or that, merely observing, a consciousness in a body in a larger world that is not of my own making, that lreexisted me, and will continue on long after you or I die?

I can investigate arguments with you only I exist, but want some convincing arguments. I can also accept arguments only you exist, and I am but a figment of your imagination, but in return I expect to have a lot of privledges, wealth, and sexy women bestowed upon me, some of it borderline.... no, outright fantastical. If you can do this, I will recognize only you exist, if only I exist, I want to know why my imagination sucks so bad so as to imagine you, and if neither of us exist, and only someone else exists, than I want to know what I never seemed to of been informed of this, being the last to know this sort of thing.
I am the demon who created this illusion you are in. I even stocked it with past memories. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to refute this from your own experience and knowledge. (Boom. Mic drop.)

User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 2228
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Post by Lacewing » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:29 pm

The questions that arise for me are: "Does it matter whether we are real or imagined?" and "If we were able to determine such a thing with certainty, how would it change our experience?" Would we give up? Would we enjoy it more? Would there no longer be any point to it? Does there NEED to be a point to it? Do we drive ourselves mad with our stories? Why not just enjoy being?

EchoesOfTheHorizon
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:08 am

Re: The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:32 am

OuterLimits wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:01 pm
EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:38 am
I hereby challenge any Solipsistic or Advaitian Non-Dualist to convince me that the world is not real, using the very arguments you use to convince me that I'm merely a figment of your imagination, on yourself.

I'm holding a IPad, typing with my thumbs. What arguments can be given to completely destroy my trust in reality, that I am, but am not this or that, merely observing, a consciousness in a body in a larger world that is not of my own making, that lreexisted me, and will continue on long after you or I die?

I can investigate arguments with you only I exist, but want some convincing arguments. I can also accept arguments only you exist, and I am but a figment of your imagination, but in return I expect to have a lot of privledges, wealth, and sexy women bestowed upon me, some of it borderline.... no, outright fantastical. If you can do this, I will recognize only you exist, if only I exist, I want to know why my imagination sucks so bad so as to imagine you, and if neither of us exist, and only someone else exists, than I want to know what I never seemed to of been informed of this, being the last to know this sort of thing.
I am the demon who created this illusion you are in. I even stocked it with past memories. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to refute this from your own experience and knowledge. (Boom. Mic drop.)
Fail. You merely asserted a Dualism between the Demon and I exist, and that a Illusion is sourced in you, and not myself. So you proved my point, with drama and efficiency. Thank you.
Lacewing wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:29 pm
The questions that arise for me are: "Does it matter whether we are real or imagined?" and "If we were able to determine such a thing with certainty, how would it change our experience?" Would we give up? Would we enjoy it more? Would there no longer be any point to it? Does there NEED to be a point to it? Do we drive ourselves mad with our stories? Why not just enjoy being?
If I am imagined, then I can find out who or what sources me, and make things more appealing on a purely hendonistic level (at that point, what else matters save self flattery, such as a made up beliefs S57 has on believing in nothing and making his own meaning in a meaningless world). If all I am is self referential, then I have nothing to loose by gaining it all. The drive to be like Agent Smith or Mantrid is something to do, for a time. A longer term approach would be to waste away in the spoils of easy victories. Perhaps my Harem of 1000 women wouldn't be real, but it be as real as me, and if I gotta put up with me, why not have them too? In many senses, I would have just as meaningless and pointless of a existence either as a imagined pauper as a dragon flying playboy, but if I gotta go through with it, some reason and logic behind wanting the best of it as I laugh in the inevitable face of oblivion. Ethics and morality wouldn't matter as no species exist, no past or future, and the present even is a mirage of code. If I find pleasure in murder or cannabalism, so be it. I can jump into a lion's den at a zoo to pass my time. It doesn't matter. But I prefer the women over the lion's den, and beef steaks over human flesh.

But if I do exist, then the fractal rules of consciousness of a ever unveiling universe matters, as I exist, and am much less than the sum of what is observed, in time and place. Jumping in a lion pit is a really bad idea if I want to survive, and spescaping into a Ethics of making your own meaning is largely meaningless, as meaning would come less from volition than experience with externals, forming principles from it, deciding from it how visceral experience matches with those experiences, giving it ordered thought, constant revaluation frokmpain and gain, pleasure, distraction and loss.

So it matters a whole lot. But if Solipsists exist, I will fully embrace the figmentation of my existence being dependent upon me if they give me the goods delivered. If I am imagining my orgy of hot faced and bodied women, then they must see what I a, imagining too, and can deliver it in a way that feels concretely and consistently real to me, like this computer tablet feels real to me over time, always on me, in my hands, in must pocket, or next to me as I sleep (use it as a phone). Easiest way to prove Solipsism is real, and that we are all figments, is just to give us what we want, and we will shut up, and admit defeat. I'm not asking for much, not the whole world, just the fun part of it.

Londoner
Posts: 762
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:47 am

Re: The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Post by Londoner » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:02 am

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:38 am
I hereby challenge any Solipsistic or Advaitian Non-Dualist to convince me that the world is not real, using the very arguments you use to convince me that I'm merely a figment of your imagination, on yourself.
'Figment of your imagination' does not describe solipsism.

The solipsist might ask; 'And what is it that you think you are?' When you have decided, then how do you compare your own thoughts with 'what is real' i.e. what is outside your thoughts?

We cannot think about anything except via our thoughts - but our thoughts are what we are trying to test for reality! It is like testing whether a 1 metre ruler is accurate by using the same 1 metre ruler to measure it.

So the solipsist would say that if something exists then ultimately that means it exists for me. It makes no sense to speculate about what 'existence' or 'reality' might mean in a metaphysical sense.

OuterLimits
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Post by OuterLimits » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:48 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:32 am
Fail. You merely asserted a Dualism between the Demon and I exist, and that a Illusion is sourced in you, and not myself. So you proved my point, with drama and efficiency. Thank you.
I asserted there is something outside of "your conscious mind" or "your conscious self" that is the source for your experience. Anyone having an experience - certainly every solipsist - will admit the same. But is the source of that experience within himself? Some kind of unbidden surprising stimulus from his unconscious mind? What must a solipsist believe to not self-refute? How do you understand a solipsist to be different from someone in the grip of Descarte's demon?

daramantus
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Post by daramantus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:22 am

consciousness is not physical. but solipsism and non duality is clearly bs.

EchoesOfTheHorizon
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:08 am

Re: The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:56 am

OuterLimits wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:48 pm
EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:32 am
Fail. You merely asserted a Dualism between the Demon and I exist, and that a Illusion is sourced in you, and not myself. So you proved my point, with drama and efficiency. Thank you.
I asserted there is something outside of "your conscious mind" or "your conscious self" that is the source for your experience. Anyone having an experience - certainly every solipsist - will admit the same. But is the source of that experience within himself? Some kind of unbidden surprising stimulus from his unconscious mind? What must a solipsist believe to not self-refute? How do you understand a solipsist to be different from someone in the grip of Descarte's demon?

By default, they absolutely wouldn't admit to this, if a pure Solipsist. Overwhelmingly, the bulk of Solipsists live in Asia, India especially, follow a belief system of Non-Duality. They are pure perception, as is God. No dividing line between experience and self. A thread on this site focuses on The Astravakra Gita, which expounds that doctrine.

The basic (but not absolute) rule for Solipsists is that the don't care about contradictions, as they are the one's doing the contradicting, they are aware of it, and even if partially, that likely is all that actually exists of it. They can use Solipsism as Cause and Effect enough to explain away Cause and Effect for origins other than the present moment. You can cry out logical fallacy here, but remember, they think you are them, so whatever you say is meaningless blah blah of equal validity to any other phenomena. Once it is said, it doesn't even exist anymore, so does it merit a answer? How can you answer a nonexistent question? Get distracted, even that goes away.

The Cartesian demon doesn't apply here as a proof of Solipsism remotely, it is if anything proof of duality, by isolating the individual through illusion, as separate and not the same thing. A true Solipsists would never accept this, if they did, they would instantly cease being Non-Dual. They of course don't suddenly jump up 50 IQ points either, so wouldn't necessarily grasp why you can't have both beliefs.... of a external Demon controlling your senses, as well as thinking everything is a figment of your imagination, but such silly people little matter in the western world.

OuterLimits
Posts: 229
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: The irrefutability of Duality and the recognition that consciousness is physical

Post by OuterLimits » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:38 pm

EchoesOfTheHorizon wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:56 am
The Cartesian demon doesn't apply here as a proof of Solipsism remotely, it is if anything proof of duality, by isolating the individual through illusion, as separate and not the same thing. A true Solipsists would never accept this, if they did, they would instantly cease being Non-Dual. They of course don't suddenly jump up 50 IQ points either, so wouldn't necessarily grasp why you can't have both beliefs.... of a external Demon controlling your senses, as well as thinking everything is a figment of your imagination, but such silly people little matter in the western world.
You say "a true Solipsist".
Do people and dictionaries understand the world Solipsism to apply only to these people?
No. Here is the >uncertainty< that I understand to be the essence.

wiki > Solipsism
"Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure; the external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist outside the mind. As a metaphysical position, solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist. Varieties: ... "

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests