How does belief actually work?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:04 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:41 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:20 am
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:03 am
Is this a point against free will?
I'm not intending it to be. But no, I don't think it is. We can still choose certain actions that indirectly influence our belief, but we can't directly change our beliefs by flipping some sort of switch on our head.
Yes you can. People chose to believe all the time. belief is about what appeals. I see people decide whether or not they think something they have seen, say on TV, is true or false.
Let me be clear that I'm not saying you can't change belief, but I'm saying you can't change it directly, to the likes of something like a bodily function. Of course, you can choose to do more research and look into things, but I don't believe that person can then actively make a decision within his own mind about which side he goes for. That's just doesn't demonstrate an intuitive understanding of how belief works. He can also choose to 'say' what side he goes with, but it doesn't mean he really goes with that side.
Do you believe I am a man or a woman?
I'm under the impression that you're a man. Now you may be able to change that based on presenting new information to me, but it's not a guarantee, and more to the point - I can't change that impression without considering absolutely any new information.

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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:10 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:04 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:41 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:20 am
I'm not intending it to be. But no, I don't think it is. We can still choose certain actions that indirectly influence our belief, but we can't directly change our beliefs by flipping some sort of switch on our head.
Yes you can. People chose to believe all the time. belief is about what appeals. I see people decide whether or not they think something they have seen, say on TV, is true or false.
Let me be clear that I'm not saying you can't change belief, but I'm saying you can't change it directly, to the likes of something like a bodily function. Of course, you can choose to do more research and look into things, but I don't believe that person can then actively make a decision within his own mind about which side he goes for. That's just doesn't demonstrate an intuitive understanding of how belief works. He can also choose to 'say' what side he goes with, but it doesn't mean he really goes with that side.
Do you believe I am a man or a woman?
I'm under the impression that you're a man. Now you may be able to change that based on presenting new information to me, but it's not a guarantee, and more to the point - I can't change that impression without considering absolutely any new information.
I have just shown you that you have consciously created a belief in your head. I posed a question and you chose an answer - that's how it works.
Now you might say that choices are deterministic, and I'd agree, but you have just chosen.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:10 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:10 pm
I have just shown you that you have consciously created a belief in your head. I posed a question and you chose an answer - that's how it works. Now you might say that choices are deterministic, and I'd agree, but you have just chosen.
I'm not sure I quite understand. Are you saying I didn't have a belief about whether you were a man or a women before bringing it up, as though the essence of my mind conceptualized you as an a-morphis blob who fits into neither biological gender? Even if this is the case, one of my points was exactly that I can't simply 'change' my belief without the presentation of new information. Unless I process new information, I'm not able to change this belief, which is exactly what you asking me what sex you are, would fall under. And even when I do process the new information, there's no predictability to what my belief will be.

This is all to say, I can't simply switch my beliefs on command. I can do things which indirectly change them, like choosing to do research ala a google search, or something to that degree.

What do you think of my pain example? Why doesn't someone who's being tortured just 'choose' to believe that pain doesn't exist?

Dalek Prime
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by Dalek Prime » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:13 am

How does belief actually work?

Not quite sure, but it's a miracle, I tells ya! A fuckin miracle!!! *burp*

:/

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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:02 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:10 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:10 pm
I have just shown you that you have consciously created a belief in your head. I posed a question and you chose an answer - that's how it works. Now you might say that choices are deterministic, and I'd agree, but you have just chosen.
I'm not sure I quite understand. Are you saying I didn't have a belief about whether you were a man or a women before bringing it up, as though the essence of my mind conceptualized you as an a-morphis blob who fits into neither biological gender?
No I am not saying that. I am saying that you were applying your default position of gender assumption. If I had been called Lucy, you'd have already made a choice maybe consciously maybe semiconsciously. When I asked I forced a choice.

Even if this is the case, one of my points was exactly that I can't simply 'change' my belief without the presentation of new information. Unless I process new information, I'm not able to change this belief, which is exactly what you asking me what sex you are, would fall under. And even when I do process the new information, there's
no predictability to what my belief will be.
You do not need new information to change your beliefs at all. You can consciously review what you already know about a thing and decide to change your mind,

This is all to say, I can't simply switch my beliefs on command. I can do things which indirectly change them, like choosing to do research ala a google search, or something to that degree.

What do you think of my pain example? Why doesn't someone who's being tortured just 'choose' to believe that pain doesn't exist?
If what you believe is not based on what you feel and what you know, where does it come from. I suggest that since you can actively and consciously change your mind, with review, What you are also doing when you are not aware of the process is much the same thing but subconsciously.
I'd be suspicious of this method however, as you are more likely to be swayed by your inner chimp. Without conscious and critical control of information and opinion you are more likely to succumb to stuff that gives you a feel good factor; or if you are a depressive, believe stuff that confirms that.

We succumb to unconscious bias all the time, without thinking. But we have a choice, we can choose to think critically about what we think and decide to take an opposing view to see if it fits.

For example the entire news network is repeating a mantra about Spain's violent reaction to Catalonian separatists. That's what you are supposed to believe; Catalonian protestors good, Spanish government evil.
If you stop and ask yourself who benefits you can arrive at a different position. Catalonia is the richest region of Spain at a time of austerity and enjoys a Mediterranean water front much like Monaco. What might Catalonia become on its own? A tax haven for the super rich to park their yachts? Separation means higher property prices and a polarisation of resources.
So you can say that a temporary nation from the 12thC yearns for independence, or you can say muse, that it is no wonder they want to hive off from Spain since they will have huge benefits such as happened in Croatia, when they destroyed Yugoslavia. This has left Bosnia impoverished.

Dalek Prime
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by Dalek Prime » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:54 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:10 pm

What do you think of my pain example? Why doesn't someone who's being tortured just 'choose' to believe that pain doesn't exist?
I've personally tried it. Doesn't work.

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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:34 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:02 am
No I am not saying that. I am saying that you were applying your default position of gender assumption. If I had been called Lucy, you'd have already made a choice maybe consciously maybe semiconsciously. When I asked I forced a choice.
Simply speaking does not metabolize a belief, I'm just saying what it is I believe. I thought you were a man before, independent of your question, and it didn't change anything within my mind.

Even if answering a question did have some sort of psychological effect that solidifies belief in some way, there's still no predictability to its result. I don't get to 'choose' what my answer is, though I can choose what I say my answer is.
You do not need new information to change your beliefs at all. You can consciously review what you already know about a thing and decide to change your mind,
Well yes, you can reconsider things as well, again with no predictability to what the resulting change will be to your belief after this 'reconsideration'.

I feel our discussion is becoming a bit discombobulated at this point, but it may help to give you some examples; I can not simply 'choose' to suddenly believe that jesus rose from the dead. I can't simply 'choose' to believe that I'm not sitting in front of a computer right now, and obviously I can't simply 'choose' to believe that pain doesn't exist. I may be able to consider certain things which do end up changing my beliefs to such crazy things, but then I'm not specifically 'choosing' what to believe, I'm just choosing to look into data points which so happens to have the result of changing my belief. This is all to say, belief is an indirect corollary gained from things that are a choice, like choosing to do research.
If what you believe is not based on what you feel and what you know, where does it come from
No I'm saying it's exactly based on that.
We succumb to unconscious bias all the time, without thinking. But we have a choice, we can choose to think critically about what we think and decide to take an opposing view to see if it fits.
We can choose to criticize something, but again, there's no predictability to whether your belief will change or what it will change to after some such critique. That's also not choosing to believe something, it's choosing to critique.

ken
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by ken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:32 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:01 pm
ken wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:24 am
In one word, CHOICE. From the open Mind there is choice.
How do I activate the option of 'choice' within this open mind, in the same way as, say, flexing my fingers?
Well, flexing fingers comes from brain activity, whereas, having the option to choose comes from an open Mind. The way the Mind and the brain work are two completely different ways. Being two completely different things means that they can work in two completely opposite ways also.

You do not activate the option of choice. The choice option is ALWAYS on, in regards to believe, or not to believe.
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:01 pm
You appear to be under the distorted belief that you HAVE TO believe some thing. Choose to NOT have this belief, then you will KNOW the mechanism of choice.
In other words, if I 'know the mechanism of choice I will know the mechanism of choice'? Well that's great and all,
You do not have to know the mechanism of choice first, in order to make the choice to believe or not. But knowing that you have the choice to (choose to) believe or not, and by just making that choice, then you can work out what the actual mechanism is, all by yourself, and how it works.

The way I like to work is to guide you in how you can find answers all by yourself. How to find the 'mechanism' that you are talking about is by learning how to choose what to believe or not. How you do that is by just choosing. If you need to be taught how to choose whether to believe or not, then imagine how you would teach a child whether to believe some thing or not to believe at all. What would you tell them or how would you show them? Now teach yourself that. I do not know how to teach you how to choose some thing. Besides saying, Just do it, I do not what else I could say that could teach you how to make a decision.
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:01 pm
but I'm trying to find out how there is one, because intuitively speaking, I don't feel I do choose to believe or disbelieve something
If you do not feel you can choose, then you are not very in tune with you.

Who or what do you think is controlling you, if you do not even feel that you can or do choose?

If you feel that you do not choose to make a choice, then who do you blame or say chooses? Do you also say or blame some thing else for EVERY other choice you make?

As an adult, if you do not take ownership of what choices you do choose, then who or what controls EVERY thing that you do? Or, are you only in control of some of the things that you do?
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:01 pm
However, what you choose to believe comes from the brain. So, if you choose to believe some thing, then a functioning brain is needed.
So, why is it that you think someone who's being tortured can't just choose to believe pain simply doesn't exist?
When did I say that is what I think?

Any person can choose to believe whatever they want, if they are strong enough. But I have yet to find a person, which such a strong belief, to believe that pain simply does not exist. Even that person a couple of thousand years ago labeled jesus could not hang on long enough and just choose to believe that pain simply does not exist. Maybe if he did choose to believe that there was no pain, and was a bit tougher, and hung on a bit longer, then things might be a bit different now? (just some thing to think about).

Anyway, depending on the degree of pain some pain can simply be dismissed. What kind of torture where you thinking about here?

The torture i went through in schools and the "education system" was horrific and at times, dare I say it, "painfully" boring but I tried to believe that it was good for me. Well at least that is what was being told to me to believe. That belief, which I was trying to hold onto at the time, somewhat alleviated the torture and pain of schooling. Also, at that time if i believed that having bamboo spikes inserted and pushed up under my fingernails would have been less painful, then the pain of having to go through school probably would have been far more painful. So, how much pain i was actually going through could be seen to be more dependent upon what i was believing at the actual time of experiencing pain.

Children know the pain of torture, of being disciplined by parents, but they lessen, or endure, this pain by believing that it is doing them good. Just because that is what they are being told at the time. These children then grow up to be parents, and can then discipline their children the exact same way, which is now being seen as torture and pain by the new children, but the whole time believing that they are doing good because of the belief that "children need discipline". These parents now believe that being 'disciplined', which can be just another word for inflicting pain and thus torture, never did me any harm. Besides the fact that smacking or hitting a child, and telling them it is for their own good, causes pain and feels like torture to a small innocent child, it also inflicts the distorted belief that it does no harm, which when they grow up is the very belief that "justifies" to one self that it is all right to inflict pain onto others, in the name of 'discipline'.

There are different ways to look at torture and pain. Again, I would need to know what type of torture and pain that you are talking about before I could answer more accurately.
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:01 pm
I know I've asked you this question before, I'd just you like to elaborate again.
I do not recall you ever asking Me this question before, and if you like to refresh our memories where or when that was that would be very helpful indeed.

Anyhow, if the body is experiencing pain, then that is a true fact. A true fact does not need belief, nor need to be believed (nor disbelieved) anyway. Pain is just a signal that some thing is going on to the body. Pain needs to be felt, or experienced, in order to work out what is going on in and/or around the body. These signals are like signposts and need to be recognized in order to help guide the body in how to move through life more safely.

ken
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by ken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:49 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:04 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:41 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:20 am
I'm not intending it to be. But no, I don't think it is. We can still choose certain actions that indirectly influence our belief, but we can't directly change our beliefs by flipping some sort of switch on our head.
Yes you can. People chose to believe all the time. belief is about what appeals. I see people decide whether or not they think something they have seen, say on TV, is true or false.
Let me be clear that I'm not saying you can't change belief, but I'm saying you can't change it directly, to the likes of something like a bodily function. Of course, you can choose to do more research and look into things, but I don't believe that person can then actively make a decision within his own mind about which side he goes for. That's just doesn't demonstrate an intuitive understanding of how belief works. He can also choose to 'say' what side he goes with, but it doesn't mean he really goes with that side.
Do you believe I am a man or a woman?
I'm under the impression that you're a man.
Do you believe that impression, that you say you are "under", or instead of choosing to believe it is true, do you just keep it as an impression, which could be right or wrong?

Whatever you chose to do, then that is how simple and easy it is to choose. You can choose whether to believe it, disbelieve it, or to do neither, and just remain open. The choice is yours, as they say.
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:04 pm
Now you may be able to change that based on presenting new information to me, but it's not a guarantee, and more to the point - I can't change that impression without considering absolutely any new information.
An impression is just a view, you have obtained, which is just based on what information has been fed into the body, through the five senses, which is how that picture was formed, which is just an impression of truth and/or reality.

Now whether you believe that picture (impression) is true or not is a decision you make. You have the choice to believe that impression, view, or picture, is true, or to just keep it as a impression, view, or picture that you have obtained, which in truth you do not know, for sure, the accuracy of it. So, you also have the choice to believe it, disbelieve it, or to do neither and just REMAIN OPEN. I KNOW which one produces the best outcome for you and others around you.

ken
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by ken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:54 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:10 pm
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:04 pm
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:41 am


Yes you can. People chose to believe all the time. belief is about what appeals. I see people decide whether or not they think something they have seen, say on TV, is true or false.
Let me be clear that I'm not saying you can't change belief, but I'm saying you can't change it directly, to the likes of something like a bodily function. Of course, you can choose to do more research and look into things, but I don't believe that person can then actively make a decision within his own mind about which side he goes for. That's just doesn't demonstrate an intuitive understanding of how belief works. He can also choose to 'say' what side he goes with, but it doesn't mean he really goes with that side.
Do you believe I am a man or a woman?
I'm under the impression that you're a man. Now you may be able to change that based on presenting new information to me, but it's not a guarantee, and more to the point - I can't change that impression without considering absolutely any new information.
Now you might say that choices are deterministic, and I'd agree, but you have just chosen.
This is why there is NO real debate regarding free will verses determinism. There is NO side over another side. BOTH free will AND determinism are equally valid and true. ALL the choices that you are able to choose from are deterministic. In fact ALL of them have been pre-determined, from the past experiences that body has had, BUT, you are completely FREE to choose. What there is to choose FROM is limited and determined BUT the ability to choose is completely freely done.

ken
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by ken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:27 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:34 am
We can choose to criticize something, but again, there's no predictability to whether your belief will change or what it will change to after some such critique.
But there could be predictability that if there was NO belief in the start, then there does not need to be any change from this fact at all.
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:34 am
That's also not choosing to believe something, it's choosing to critique.
If you can choose to critique instead of believe some thing, then you can also choose to always be open and critique always, and thus choosing to never believe and never disbelieve any thing.

Walker
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by Walker » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:41 pm

Ken wrote:choosing
Here is a rationale concerning choice that you may not have ever had to consider:

“Out of my confusion, bewilderment, uncertainty, the feeling of being incapable of clarity - out of this I act. I choose a leader; I choose a certain course of action; and I commit myself to a particular activity, but that activity, that pattern of action, the pursuit of a particular mode of thought is the result of my confusion. If I'm not confused, if there is no confusion whatsoever, then there is no choice; I see things as they are. I act not on choice.”

Jiddu Krishnamurti
New York 3rd Public Talk 30th September 1966
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/19 ... ublic-talk

ken
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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by ken » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:46 pm

Walker wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:41 pm
Ken wrote:choosing
Here is a rationale concerning choice that you may not have ever had to consider:

“Out of my confusion, bewilderment, uncertainty, the feeling of being incapable of clarity - out of this I act. I choose a leader; I choose a certain course of action; and I commit myself to a particular activity, but that activity, that pattern of action, the pursuit of a particular mode of thought is the result of my confusion. If I'm not confused, if there is no confusion whatsoever, then there is no choice; I see things as they are. I act not on choice.”

Jiddu Krishnamurti
New York 3rd Public Talk 30th September 1966
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/19 ... ublic-talk
i had not heard this before so i had not considered this before.

The actual FEELING of being incapable of clarity is CONFUSION, itself. So, obviously, if I am always seeing things as they are, or as I have been saying here, seeing what IS, then there is NO feeling of confusion at all.

ALL people are CAPABLE of clarity.

How people are capable of clarity is, by what I have been continually suggesting is the best way to discover, find, see, and understand what the actual truth IS, and that is by neither thinking, assuming, nor believing that one already knows what the truth is. When people are doing this, they are not necessarily choosing to be open but rather are naturally just being open, and it is only then that they can and will see that they already have and know the truth. What people are doing when they are open and remain open is seeing things as they really and truly are. That is HOW they already know the truth.

Being fully and completely open could also be referred to as acting in the moment as it is some times known as. Or, for more accuracy, re-acting at that moment. Being open one is not necessarily acting nor re-acting on choice, but rather just being with, or reacting with, that moment of NOW.

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Re: How does belief actually work?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:55 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:34 am
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:02 am
No I am not saying that. I am saying that you were applying your default position of gender assumption. If I had been called Lucy, you'd have already made a choice maybe consciously maybe semiconsciously. When I asked I forced a choice.
Simply speaking does not metabolize a belief, I'm just saying what it is I believe. I thought you were a man before, independent of your question, and it didn't change anything within my mind.

Even if answering a question did have some sort of psychological effect that solidifies belief in some way, there's still no predictability to its result. I don't get to 'choose' what my answer is, though I can choose what I say my answer is.
You do not need new information to change your beliefs at all. You can consciously review what you already know about a thing and decide to change your mind,
Well yes, you can reconsider things as well, again with no predictability to what the resulting change will be to your belief after this 'reconsideration'.

I feel our discussion is becoming a bit discombobulated at this point, but it may help to give you some examples; I can not simply 'choose' to suddenly believe that jesus rose from the dead. I can't simply 'choose' to believe that I'm not sitting in front of a computer right now, and obviously I can't simply 'choose' to believe that pain doesn't exist. I may be able to consider certain things which do end up changing my beliefs to such crazy things, but then I'm not specifically 'choosing' what to believe, I'm just choosing to look into data points which so happens to have the result of changing my belief. This is all to say, belief is an indirect corollary gained from things that are a choice, like choosing to do research.
If what you believe is not based on what you feel and what you know, where does it come from
No I'm saying it's exactly based on that.
We succumb to unconscious bias all the time, without thinking. But we have a choice, we can choose to think critically about what we think and decide to take an opposing view to see if it fits.
We can choose to criticize something, but again, there's no predictability to whether your belief will change or what it will change to after some such critique. That's also not choosing to believe something, it's choosing to critique.
You seem to have no interest in understanding.
Why are you calling me a man anyway?

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