Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:38 am

Pure Consciousness/Proto Consciousness (Deep Sleep) may be the Ordered state of Mind (Disorder=0) and Existence may be the Increased State of Entropy (Disorder>0). But the physical body can not have zero entropy as zero entropy for any physical system is impossible to achieve. Also it should be remembered that consciousness/Mind is not a Physical Stuff/Quantity like Brain which can have a different states of entropy. It's not possible to attribute states of Entropy to Consciousness and Mind, unlike for different States of Brain which is Physical in Nature. It should also be remembered that Entropy is only a Physical attribute and not Mental Attribute.

Everyone is Absolutely Unique, but Everyone's Consciousness is Uniform. There are no two typical persons in existence. Everyone differ from another in multiple aspects like thoughts, action, feelings, emotions etc. Even though everyone share the same atomic, molecular, DNA and fractal geometry, no two person share the same behavior, thoughts, emotions, feelings etc. The mental faculties may be almost similar, but the content, degree, magnitude, nature etc are always different. This is not a trivial matter to neglect. When there are no two persons sharing A to Z same characteristics what may be the secrecy behind the creation. Creations itself is absolutely unique in nature. Time always flows from Past to Future. There are no two same moments. This shows that change and differences are fundamental in Nature.

Entropy applies only for Physical Systems (which may include Brain also) and not Mental Systems like Mind, Thoughts, Feelings etc. Now, stop a while and focus on your consciousness. Is it not surprising that the consciousness is Uniform, without any attributes and variations. It may also be found that Consciousness and Entropy are opposite in Nature. But it can be easily inferred that all polar opposites are two sides of the same coin. So it may be a fact that Consciousness and Entropy have deep relationship and both may be two sides of the same coin. Consciousness may be called as God, Brahman etc while Existence may be likened to Ishwara. I may be the Brahman (Consciousness) as well as the Ishwara (Existence aka Universe).

The fact may be that there is only One Consciousness/Proto consciousness, but multiple offshoots coming out of it as Inanimate and Animate matter as a NATURAL SIMULATION from it as a Temporary Phenomena called Universe. Consciousness/Proto Consciousness may be the Ordered state and Existence/Universe may be the Disordered State. That which doesn't change (Consciousness/Proto-consciousness) may be Absolute Reality and anything that changes/appears/disappears/modifies/gives birth/dies out/space/time/contents-there-in etc may be due to the Entropy of Nature, which is the other side of the coin, Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness. This may be the reason for discrepancies between Quantum Physics and Classical Physics and also behind the Wave and Particle duality of Light.

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Harbal
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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Harbal » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:56 pm

Dontaskme wrote:Entropy may be two sides of the same coin
If entropy is both sides of the coin it may have been more accurate to say that entropy is the coin, unless, of course, there's something in the middle of the coin that you've neglected to mention.

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:31 pm

Harbal wrote:
Dontaskme wrote:Entropy may be two sides of the same coin
If entropy is both sides of the coin it may have been more accurate to say that entropy is the coin, unless, of course, there's something in the middle of the coin that you've neglected to mention.
No 3D object has ever been seen, so what is there to neglect to mention?

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Harbal » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:39 pm

Dontaskme wrote: No 3D object has ever been seen, so what is there to neglect to mention?
I don't believe I said anything about seeing a 3D object.

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:51 pm

Harbal wrote:
Dontaskme wrote: No 3D object has ever been seen, so what is there to neglect to mention?
I don't believe I said anything about seeing a 3D object.
You mentioned a two sided coin and the possibility the coin having a middle part. That's a 3D object.

Harbal, if you are going to send nonsensical responses to my posts, then you are going to be sent nonsensical replies.

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:09 am

Dontaskme wrote:Pure Consciousness/Proto Consciousness (Deep Sleep) may be the Ordered state of Mind (Disorder=0) and Existence may be the Increased State of Entropy (Disorder>0). But the physical body can not have zero entropy as zero entropy for any physical system is impossible to achieve. Also it should be remembered that consciousness/Mind is not a Physical Stuff/Quantity like Brain which can have a different states of entropy. It's not possible to attribute states of Entropy to Consciousness and Mind, unlike for different States of Brain which is Physical in Nature. It should also be remembered that Entropy is only a Physical attribute and not Mental Attribute.
The Inter Mind model proposes that there is a Physical Mind (Brain) existing in Physical Space and a Conscious Mind existing in Conscious Space. We know that Neurons fire in the Physical Mind and we have corresponding Conscious Experiences in the Conscious Mind. No one knows how the Neural firings lead to Conscious Experience. The inter Mind Model proposes that there is an Inter Mind that connects the Physical Mind to the Conscious Mind. Maybe The Inter Mind operates using principles of Entropy to bridge the Gap.

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:31 am

SteveKlinko wrote: The Inter Mind model proposes that there is a Physical Mind (Brain) existing in Physical Space and a Conscious Mind existing in Conscious Space.

We know that Neurons fire in the Physical Mind and we have corresponding Conscious Experiences in the Conscious Mind. No one knows how the Neural firings lead to Conscious Experience.
Do you mean like the brains trillions of tiny point particles when making contact with each other as they fly around in vibratory fashion,cause a friction called a neural firing of electrical impulses causing sparks of electrical light/or consciousness to emerge.


The inter Mind Model proposes that there is an Inter Mind that connects the Physical Mind to the Conscious Mind. Maybe The Inter Mind operates using principles of Entropy to bridge the Gap.
Do you mean like when latent awareness knows sensation..consciousness comes online(activated on contact)..appearing as the mind?

Or put another esoteric way...When unconscious latent awareness (Father) knows sensation /conscious(Mother) Son is born (mind)?

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:32 pm

Dontaskme wrote: Do you mean like the brains trillions of tiny point particles when making contact with each other as they fly around in vibratory fashion,cause a friction called a neural firing of electrical impulses causing sparks of electrical light/or consciousness to emerge.
In the sense that consciousness emerging out of the sea of the infinite field of pure awareness...that is the substratum of all emergent properties.

I don't mean to get too Hindu or Buddist on yer ..but will try to keep in line with your genera of thinking.

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by osgart » Sun May 07, 2017 1:52 am

just amazed how much philosophers deduct and eliminate so many things in reality..

self and experience are deducted.

The senses are deducted.

reality a persistent illusion and consciousness a fluke illusion.

crap all of it.

fancy terminology doesn't make a person want to be someone else's program. pretty soon we will have designation numbers for all people.And

human history always had people of this evil intent. soft Nazism vs hard core Nazism.

existence doesn't need human God's again to engineer society out of any personal language of the heart .
it is the inspired heart that made America great. The yearning for individual liberty .

philosophy makes one prideful for no good reason.
fancy intellectualism. the great movement to make a sterile society because of the power of technology.

I see the dann movement and their attempt to change the English language from personal to sterile.

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Dontaskme » Sun May 07, 2017 8:24 am

osgart wrote:just amazed how much philosophers deduct and eliminate so many things in reality..

self and experience are deducted.

The senses are deducted.

reality a persistent illusion and consciousness a fluke illusion.

crap all of it.
Huh? ..me thinks yer getting yer wires crossed.

where's it been said that senses are deducted? ... when I've clearly included them....in bolded red
When unconscious latent awareness (Father) knows sensation /conscious(Mother) Son is born (mind)?
osgart wrote:existence doesn't need human God's again to engineer society out of any personal language of the heart .


Huh, no one is doing that, God wants to be in relationship with you, how else is God to be known to his offspring without that two way communication? heart to heart....
We're not all going to understand God in exactly the same way you know...each to their own...what's good for the goose it good for the gander.

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by osgart » Sun May 07, 2017 12:18 pm

sorry I posted to the wrong spot

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Your Construct » Mon May 22, 2017 4:29 am

Hi Dontaskme,

I have been pondering this ever since you posted it; and I have not been able to come up with anything to my satisfaction until now. Are consciousness and entropy the dualistic opposites of each other? Consciousness is what we use to perceive everything, we use consciousness to perceive entropy. Good and evil are both perceived by consciousness, positive and negative are both perceived by consciousness, order and chaos are both perceived by consciousness. So what can we perceive that would be the opposite of entropy? After weeks of pondering, my conclusion can be encapsulated in a single, short sentence.

My conclusion is that the dualistic opposite of entropy would have to be evolution.

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of the universe is always increasing. Within the current framework that we understand thermodynamics, this means we would evolve even more.

The mathematical equation for entropy is

S = k ln (W)

S represents entropy, k is Boltzman's constant, ln is the natural log, and W is the number of states that a system has. Does this mean that evolution can also be expressed as an equally simple mathematical equation? Is the equation for evolution, if it can be expressed as an equation, a symmetric form of the entropy equation? This could be a PhD thesis. Biology is not my field though.

Since reality is basically consciousness evolving towards greater complexity, I believe your statement would still be correct; I am just being more technical.

Best Regards,
Your Construct

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Dontaskme » Tue May 23, 2017 2:03 pm

Your Construct wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 4:29 am
Hi Dontaskme,

I have been pondering this ever since you posted it; and I have not been able to come up with anything to my satisfaction until now. Are consciousness and entropy the dualistic opposites of each other? Consciousness is what we use to perceive everything, we use consciousness to perceive entropy. Good and evil are both perceived by consciousness, positive and negative are both perceived by consciousness, order and chaos are both perceived by consciousness. So what can we perceive that would be the opposite of entropy? After weeks of pondering, my conclusion can be encapsulated in a single, short sentence.

My conclusion is that the dualistic opposite of entropy would have to be evolution.

The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of the universe is always increasing. Within the current framework that we understand thermodynamics, this means we would evolve even more.

The mathematical equation for entropy is

S = k ln (W)

S represents entropy, k is Boltzman's constant, ln is the natural log, and W is the number of states that a system has. Does this mean that evolution can also be expressed as an equally simple mathematical equation? Is the equation for evolution, if it can be expressed as an equation, a symmetric form of the entropy equation? This could be a PhD thesis. Biology is not my field though.

Since reality is basically consciousness evolving towards greater complexity, I believe your statement would still be correct; I am just being more technical.

Best Regards,
Your Construct
I can't see my study of consciousness from the intellectually technical thesis point. All I can do is discuss personal experience of what consciousness is to me, as and through my own conscious experience.So I don't really know what you mean by (''the dualistic opposite of entropy would have to be evolution'')

Consciousness does not evolve, but consciousness in turn has made the Mind evolve through it's human dimension.
Consciousness does not act on it's own, it acts through the polar opposites of the mind. A world operating on DUALITY is like a double edged sword.No doubt, all duality lies in the mind only. But, without consciousness, mind does not gain it's power to recognise Duality. Without Consciousness a creative human dimension is not at all possible.


There is no duality in deep sleep...Deep sleep must be the original nature of consciousness, devoid of all duality...which I've intuited all along. Therefore, nothing ever dies, it sleeps, but cannot die.
In the waking world consciousness acts through our mind in the duality mode awakened from sleep. It's two sides of the same coin, there cannot be a one sided coin.

.

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Your Construct » Wed May 24, 2017 7:36 pm

If there is no duality in deep sleep, would deep sleep even be considered existence? Existence does not seem possible without duality.

Even awareness doesn't seem possible without duality, or is awareness nondual? Awareness seems to be dual to me, you have the awareness AND what you are aware of.

Is there absolutely no awareness in deep sleep? Or is there just the slightest infinitesimal amount of awareness?

I know, lots of questions.

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Re: Pure Consciousness/Proto-Consciousness and Entropy may be the two sides of the same coin

Post by Dontaskme » Sat May 27, 2017 12:20 pm

Your Construct wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 7:36 pm
If there is no duality in deep sleep, would deep sleep even be considered existence? Existence does not seem possible without duality.
Existence is existence ...always...through all states of consciousness. But only on the ''conscious level'' as and through our thoughts and perceptions is existence known....known to itself ..awareness aware of itself..appearing as (apparent duality)


Your Construct wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 7:36 pm
Even awareness doesn't seem possible without duality, or is awareness nondual? Awareness seems to be dual to me, you have the awareness AND what you are aware of.
Awareness is the eternal presence of the I AM..it is Nondual....awareness aware of something appears to be dualistic in that there is an observer here and an object there separate from this observer here...when in fact the observer is inseparable from what it is observing...therefore, reality is Nondual appearing as duality.
Your Construct wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 7:36 pm
Is there absolutely no awareness in deep sleep? Or is there just the slightest infinitesimal amount of awareness?
Like I said earlier, awareness never leaves or can ever be absent, it is what you are in essence, it is eternally present as the unconscious I AM

...when it awakens to it'self, as and through the mind brain body mechanism of a human being does it appear dual. Awareness is the changeless, ageless, unmoved observer of everything that changes, ages and moves. Therefore, duality is illusory, an illusion appearing within another illusion. And yes, the illusion is real, no one knows how this is possible, except the knower itself which is the divine handy work of the craftsman itself often called God. God being beyond real time & space duality, often referred to as a metaphysical supernatural noumenon appearing as phenomena.

The mind or consciousness, ...turns itself off in deep sleep...but awareness is still there, always there/ here...otherwise you would not awaken from your sleep in the morning or after death...to once again know yourself as presence/ existence.


.

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