Subconscious mind?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:49 pm

Couldn't we do everything consciously? Why we have subconscious mind?
Last edited by bahman on Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

akuma's chamber
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by akuma's chamber » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:58 pm

I think this depends on what subconscious mind refers to.

A There's the Freudian type where a subconscious (and unconscious) mind operate similarly to a conscious mind except we're not aware of it.
B Or there's the type where the subconscious mind refers to brain states that operate habitually via learned/acquired motor movements that we're not consciously aware of.

I take B to be true.

sthitapragya
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by sthitapragya » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:40 pm

bahman wrote:Couldn't we do everything consciously? Why we have subconscious mind?
Because we cannot do everything consciously.

https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/auto.html

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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:20 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
bahman wrote: Couldn't we do everything consciously? Why we have subconscious mind?
Because we cannot do everything consciously.

https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/auto.html
That I understand. But I think that autonomic nervous system is different from subconsciousness. Subconsciousness is important for processing thought for example. It helps us to remember things. Etc.

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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:23 pm

akuma's chamber wrote: I think this depends on what subconscious mind refers to.

A There's the Freudian type where a subconscious (and unconscious) mind operate similarly to a conscious mind except we're not aware of it.
B Or there's the type where the subconscious mind refers to brain states that operate habitually via learned/acquired motor movements that we're not consciously aware of.

I take B to be true.
I take that (A) to be true. For example we process thoughts with subconscious mind.

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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by akuma's chamber » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:32 am

bahman wrote:
akuma's chamber wrote: I think this depends on what subconscious mind refers to.

A There's the Freudian type where a subconscious (and unconscious) mind operate similarly to a conscious mind except we're not aware of it.
B Or there's the type where the subconscious mind refers to brain states that operate habitually via learned/acquired motor movements that we're not consciously aware of.

I take B to be true.
I take that (A) to be true. For example we process thoughts with subconscious mind.
I take it that there are two different "kinds" of brain states: conscious (or mental) states and nonconscious states. The subconscious, as you describe it, would just amount to nonconscious states in my view. So I don't believe there is a third "kind" of brain state. Also, nonconscious states necessarily occur whether conscious states occur or not.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by Terrapin Station » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:22 pm

bahman wrote:Couldn't we do everything consciously? Why we have subconscious mind?
I don't buy that there is a subconscious mind.

I do not mean by that that I'm denying unconscious brain processes including that we can unconsciously perceive things in the sense of receiving external information. I'm simply saying that I do not buy that any of those subconscious brain processes have a mental quality to them--that they're anything in the vein of thoughts, concepts, desires, etc. It seems to me that there's no good reason to believe that any brain state is like a thought, concept, etc., unless it's a conscious state.

Sometimes my position on this is taken to be merely a statement that I'm not going to call anything unconscious "mental." It's not a terminological disagreement. I'm saying that I don't believe that there's any good reason to buy that any unconscious brain states have the properties/qualities of being mental states that we simply are not aware of.

Using akuma's chamber's distinction above, I'm saying there's no good reason to buy (A).
Last edited by Terrapin Station on Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by Terrapin Station » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:26 pm

bahman wrote:
akuma's chamber wrote: I think this depends on what subconscious mind refers to.

A There's the Freudian type where a subconscious (and unconscious) mind operate similarly to a conscious mind except we're not aware of it.
B Or there's the type where the subconscious mind refers to brain states that operate habitually via learned/acquired motor movements that we're not consciously aware of.

I take B to be true.
I take that (A) to be true. For example we process thoughts with subconscious mind.
?? Then why would you ask, "Couldn't we do everything consciously?"

OuterLimits
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by OuterLimits » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:21 pm

Objectively,
examining humans in a lab,
without any presumption that it is like anything to be them, that there is anything subjectively mental going on,
greatly simplifying questions like this,
we can certainly, using e.g. "framing experiments" determine that it is possible to affect the reports and choices of the subject without
the subject reporting any awareness of the influences taking place.

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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by OuterLimits » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:25 pm

bahman wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
bahman wrote: Couldn't we do everything consciously? Why we have subconscious mind?
Because we cannot do everything consciously.

https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/auto.html
In a larger connected universe of causes and effects, do "we" "do" anything? - "consciously" or otherwise? The things an individual "does" consciously - are these not caused by prior events?

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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:33 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
bahman wrote: Couldn't we do everything consciously? Why we have subconscious mind?
I don't buy that there is a subconscious mind.

I do not mean by that that I'm denying unconscious brain processes including that we can unconsciously perceive things in the sense of receiving external information. I'm simply saying that I do not buy that any of those subconscious brain processes have a mental quality to them--that they're anything in the vein of thoughts, concepts, desires, etc. It seems to me that there's no good reason to believe that any brain state is like a thought, concept, etc., unless it's a conscious state.

Sometimes my position on this is taken to be merely a statement that I'm not going to call anything unconscious "mental." It's not a terminological disagreement. I'm saying that I don't believe that there's any good reason to buy that any unconscious brain states have the properties/qualities of being mental states that we simply are not aware of.

Using akuma's chamber's distinction above, I'm saying there's no good reason to buy (A).
I see what you are saying but I am not convince with your comment. I don't understand why mental state in subconscious mind could be different from thought, concept, atc. Have you ever experience that a idea pops in inside your conscious mind when you don't even focus on the related problem to the idea?

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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:35 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
bahman wrote:
akuma's chamber wrote: I think this depends on what subconscious mind refers to.

A There's the Freudian type where a subconscious (and unconscious) mind operate similarly to a conscious mind except we're not aware of it.
B Or there's the type where the subconscious mind refers to brain states that operate habitually via learned/acquired motor movements that we're not consciously aware of.

I take B to be true.
I take that (A) to be true. For example we process thoughts with subconscious mind.
?? Then why would you ask, "Couldn't we do everything consciously?"
Because I believe that subconscious mind process thoughts. What is wrong with that?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by Terrapin Station » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:30 pm

bahman wrote:I see what you are saying but I am not convince with your comment. I don't understand why mental state in subconscious mind could be different from thought, concept, atc.
It's non-mental, unconscious brain states in my view rather.
Have you ever experience that a idea pops in inside your conscious mind when you don't even focus on the related problem to the idea?
I've certainly had an idea "pop" into consciousness. There's absolutely no reason to believe that I had that idea prior to it being a conscious phenomenon. What would be a reason to believe that?
Because I believe that subconscious mind process thoughts. What is wrong with that?
When you write "subconscious mind" with a question mark, and ask why it couldn't be the case that "we do everything consciously," it suggests rather that you do not believe that there is a subconscious mind. It's just a matter of conventional ways of communicating in English.

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bahman
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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by bahman » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:17 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
bahman wrote: I see what you are saying but I am not convince with your comment. I don't understand why mental state in subconscious mind could be different from thought, concept, atc.
It's non-mental, unconscious brain states in my view rather.
Why you think so? Do you have an argument or evidence for that?
Terrapin Station wrote:
bahman wrote: Have you ever experience that a idea pops in inside your conscious mind when you don't even focus on the related problem to the idea?
I've certainly had an idea "pop" into consciousness. There's absolutely no reason to believe that I had that idea prior to it being a conscious phenomenon. What would be a reason to believe that?
I don't quite understand why you are saying here. Do you mean that forming an idea and poping into conscious mind is a conscious phenomena?

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Re: Subconscious mind?

Post by Ginkgo » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:58 am

bahman wrote:Couldn't we do everything consciously? Why we have subconscious mind?
Probably not, we can only attend to a couple of things at a time. It is very difficult to have two streams of thought that are no bound into a single experiential state. Most of what goes on in the brain is unconscious, it is only when we decide to attend that subconscious thoughts become conscious.

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