Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Obvious Leo
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

Post by Obvious Leo »

Dontaskme wrote: Ineffable Reality
Since this is not a term used in either philosophy or science would you be so kind as to define it?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

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''True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.''
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Harbal
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

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Dontaskme wrote: I see a very talented artist in Bill who is able to articulate the concept of consciousness in a unique way; that is, he is able to speak through gif images,
Didn't primitive man communicate with pictures before he developed the language sophisticated enough to enable him to share his ideas with more precision? I get the strong impression that most of the people here are irritated by Bill's pictures, rather than enlightened by them. The fact that they "resonate" with you is no measure of the quality of their communication value.
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

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''True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.''
Last edited by Dontaskme on Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

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True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Harbal
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

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Dontaskme wrote: Yes, but primitive man has not really moved an inch in the simple to complex states of analogy, simply because the word man is just a concept, only conceptual ideas within consciousness interchange from basic to simple to complex, makes no difference to what is always here which is the light of consciousness or Life.Light and life are precise because neither life nor light has a cause. Light and life are what they are. There is no cause for life or light to be what it is, meaning that life and light are precise as they are.

Light is precise, and it is evident by what an illusionist-painter and a magician can do. As every atom of life is light, it only means that everything in life is an illusory reflection of light. An illusionist-painter and a magician by a painting or by an act make an illusion appear real. The illusion is possible because the painting or the magical act is precise, and it would not be illusory if it were not precise. The illusionist-painting and a magic act are illusory, because every atom of paint and man is light and light is precise.Life is precise too, and it is evident that life is precise because every moment happens continuously, spontaneously, uncontrollably and unpredictably, without an interval between moments.
This may be a good example of something that would be better expressed in pictures. The reason I say that is because it means absolutely fucking nothing when put down in words.
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

Post by Obvious Leo »

I can't be effed with this ineffable shit. In both science and philosophy reality is only definable in the language of its changes, be they pictures or words, so reality and change are synonymous terms. If anybody wants to dispute this perfectly orthodox and mainstream stance in philosophy then they can knock themselves out but nobody will give an eff for such a view.
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Arising_uk
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

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Dontaskme wrote:Consciousness is Real. Real remains the same without change. But everything changes, and this is the illusion I'm talking about. ...
What that 'Real' is an illusion, as if everything changes then this 'Real' changes?
The contents of consciousness are transitory; by contents I mean of the mind' the mind is an aspect of consciousness. ...
You're relly going to have to say what you mean by 'consciousness' as I'd have thought having a 'mind' was to be a consciousness?
The thought of I am conscious is a movement within consciousness which is mental activity. This is the illusion, there is no other I to be conscious, only consciousness is conscious. ...
Er!? Many of the other animals appear conscious but I doubt they say 'I am"?
Hopefully that's what John Searle was saying, however, we each translate meaning in our own unique way in accordance to how we've been indoctrinated and conditioned by our culture. ...
I think we pretty much all translate meaning the same way, into pictures, 'feelings' or touch, sounds and smells(rarely)? That we can also use Language is where the confusion can occur.

Personally what Searle said was that 'Consciousness is a biological phenomenon' and as such that there can be a 'Science of Consciousness'.
You have not been taught the Nondual reality of nature in school, this is something you have to figure out for yourself.
Don't know about you but Metaphysics was not taught at all in my school. However, I was raised by a Burmese mother so Buddhism played a part and later on I studied Philosophy and as such was taught a fair amount of Metaphysics and there were quite a few 'nondual' metaphysical theories. Apart from that I was also aorung for the 70's and the world wash was awash with hippy 'eastern' metaphysics.
It's all the same one consciousness experiencing itself as infinite non-separated aspects of itself, separation is the illusion.
Sorry but you're really going to have to clarify what you mean by this. Are you saying that everyone shares some 'one consciousness' as if 'consciousness' is a biological phenomenon it appears obvious, to me, that this means there are lots of separate consciousnesses.
I hope this is clear, I cannot make you understand the dynamic of how Life is one unitary single movement. ...
Personally I think you are reifying the fact that there are living things and think that giving it a capital letter somehow makes it concrete.
It is experiential to itself alone. ...
What is? Show me this 'Life'?
In the same context I cannot explain the taste of an orange to you if you have never tasted one yourself.
It's like a lemon or grapefruit but sweeter and less sharp.
You say you have been interested in consciousness probably longer than me which is a bit of an arbitrary statement to make but nonetheless, ...
My apologies, I'm 56 and having been reading and considering what it is to be conscious since I was 13, how old are you?
I don't get why you seem to think I'm saying consciousness is separate from the body, external to the body. ...
Because you keep talking about this 'seer' who is seeing itself through us? So I wonder where this 'seer' is? You also keep saying something like, 'we are all aspects of the same consciousness', etc, so I wonder where this 'consciousness' is? But my apologies, as if what you are actually saying is that there is only consciousness with a body then I agree with you.
There is nothing external or internal to reality, except as an idea or mental construct, and that is the illusion I'm talking about. ...
You'd have to explain what that 'tree' is that me and the squirrel both run to when there are wolves about then?
I understand this subject can be often confusing and paradoxical. ...
I think it very simple, we are bodies with senses(I'll add and memory now I think about it) in an external world and because we can recognize each other we can understand ourselves as an other. That we also have Language means we can also 'talk to ourselves' and that does appear to cause issues for many.
Life is a singular movement.
There you go again?
Life is light because every atom of life is light.
Can photons emit atoms?
Light and life are precise because neither life nor light has a cause.
I thought photons come from atoms and its Suns that do the mass producing?

I thought the latest on living things was that they came from evolving molecules? Carbon to be precise?
Light and life are what they are. ...
Yup! Physical and bio-chemical processes.
There is no cause for life or light to be what it is. Light is just another word for Consciousness or Awareness or Seer. There is no other one seeing, there is only seeing. Or one seer, which is the same as saying there is only ''Seeing''
There you go again, which 'one seer'? Me, if so does this mean everyone else are not 'seers'?
The eye receives light waves which the mind interprets as the seen or an action. ...
Where do these 'light waves' come from? Although you can just as well understand them as particles.
We therefore see light but think the seen or an action. ...
And when we feel a slap on the back of our head?
But the minds interpretation of an action is a reaction not the action. ...
Well for sure but it is the result of something acting I'd have thought?
Action is one unitary movement. ...
Ah! Is it that you are just talking about what consciousness is for us and not inferring that there is no external world?
Paradox is a real word to the human mind.
So is "obfuscation"
But words are of sound therefore an illusory appearance, an effect, not real. ...
So if I say 'I'm going to slap you' you won't move?
Appearing real to the mind is the unreality, meaning illusoriness of the real. ...
Well I tend to agree with Kant that there are phenomena and the noumenon is unknowable, is this what you mean or do you mean phenomena are unknowable as well?
I can't explain this any other way Arising -uk. ...
Shame, as it's really very unclear what you mean.
That's what Bill meant when he pointed out that I was also a seer. Bill is a seer too. Being a seer means one who has seen past and through the illusion of separate seers to look straight into the one who is seeing. ...
Sorry, there you go again? What is this 'one'? You, me, Bill?
The entity that is created in the subject object duality is the illusion.
Apart from having a different body that is.
That's why I know where Bill is at with his posts. It's kind of like a silent understanding, a knowing, without having to get the thinking process involved, there is just straight forward understanding without the need for words.
So pictures, 'feelings' or touch, sounds and smells then.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

.



Got schooled my man...


& the automatic formatory reaction that you normally use just ain't workin anymore...






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Obvious Leo
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

Post by Obvious Leo »

Arising_uk wrote: Personally what Searle said was that 'Consciousness is a biological phenomenon' and as such that there can be a 'Science of Consciousness'.
The consensus view in most modern philosophies of mind is that it makes no sense to say that a living organism possesses consciousness. It makes more sense to say that certain organisms which have evolved beyond an unspecified order of informational complexity are conscious. In other words consciousness is an emergent spectrum phenomenon which merely defines a state of being. For example to say that an organism has consciousness is rather analogous to saying that a male organism has maleness rather than saying that a particular organism simply is or is not a male. In a sense the two statements are synonymous but in nuance they reflect a subtly different procedure of thought.
Arising_uk wrote: Apart from that I was also aorung for the 70's and the world wash was awash with hippy 'eastern' metaphysics.
Nostalgia ain't what it used to be but I too remember the good old days with fondness.
Arising_uk wrote: I'd have thought having a 'mind' was to be a consciousness?
Essentially these are two different statements in one. Do you "have" a mind or "are" you a mind? This is the central point of the monist/dualist dichotomy, is it not?
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

Post by Obvious Leo »

Arising_uk wrote:Can photons emit atoms?
Only if you put the cart before the horse.
Arising_uk wrote:I thought the latest on living things was that they came from evolving molecules? Carbon to be precise?
Molecular evolution is now a mature science with a rigorous methodology and this principle is no longer in dispute.
Arising_uk wrote:Where do these 'light waves' come from? Although you can just as well understand them as particles.
Whether light is manifest as particle or wave is entirely a function of the way the observer interrogates the behaviour of the physical process under scrutiny. Neither can meaningfully be defined as a property of the light itself.
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

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Bill Wiltrack wrote:.
Got schooled my man...
:lol: Maturity speaks!
& the automatic formatory reaction that you normally use just ain't workin anymore....
What babble is this you speak?
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Harbal
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

Post by Harbal »

Arising_uk wrote:
& the automatic formatory reaction that you normally use just ain't workin anymore...[/size].
What babble is this you speak?
It does rather appear to undermine the concept of language as a means of communication. I suggest you get an expert look at it, if nothing else, they may be able to advise you how to dispose of it safely.
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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

.



Got taken to the woodshed.


Changes everything for you.




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Re: Jean-Dominique Bauby & The Hell We Exist In

Post by Arising_uk »

Dontaskme wrote:... The clouds are transitory, ever changing shape and form whereas the sky is changeless. This does not come and go it is always here. ...
Where does it go at night?
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