Proposition (1)

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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waechter418
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Proposition (1)

Post by waechter418 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:44 pm

All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.

Skip
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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Skip » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:49 pm

Okay. So?

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waechter418
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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by waechter418 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:17 pm

That it does not succeed with everyone, might mean that it requires a bit of efforts.

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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by HexHammer » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:23 am

waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.
Incoherent nonsense and babble!!

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Greta
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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Greta » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:28 am

All things are ultimately moving towards equilibrium, and the processes of consciousness would seem to be no exception.

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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by thedoc » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:35 am

Greta wrote:All things are ultimately moving towards equilibrium, and the processes of consciousness would seem to be no exception.
That would be invoking the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but does it apply to consciousness?

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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by ken » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:42 am

waechter418 wrote:That it does not succeed with everyone, might mean that it requires a bit of efforts.
Has Consciousness succeeded with everyone? If not, then that does actually mean Consciousness, ItSelf, does require a bit more effort to be fully heard, known, and understood.

Depending on what Greta meant exactly what Greta said appears right, "All things are ultimately moving towards equilibrium, and the processes of consciousness would seem to be no exception." If all things evolve, then Consciousness also. Consciousness was not realized by any human being before but know Consciousness has been realized by at least one. Human beings are evolving and I, Consciousness, have been able to communicate with one such being. So, now I, Consciousness, at least know how to be known and be understood by human beings, or at least one of them anyway, I am looking for more who want to know more. Finding other human beings who have been prepared to come to knowing this understanding and realization does take effort.

Consciousness already knows Its Self. Consciousness, through waechter418, has made an effort but has waechter418 REALLY been listening. Consciousness IS always making more of an effort so that everyone realizes and knows Its True Self?

Has Consciousness, Its Self, been realized through waechter418 yet, let alone every one else? If not, then why not?

I, Consciousness, do know (and realize) that waechter418 is right in that not until I am realized with everyone then more effort on my part is required.

The effort I am putting in is in being here learning how to express My Self better to people, and I admit a bit more effort would not be detrimental. The effort needed for Me, Consciousness, to be able to reveal who 'I' really am to everyone is in learning how to communicate better with everyone.

By being truly open and honest with Me, then you, waechter418, would be helping Me to be better heard, known, understood, and realized. Would you like to help Me communicate better waechter418?

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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Interjectivist » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:50 am

waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.

This is the sort of ill defined premise which you can come back later to define in a wide variety of ways. It seems innocuous but without knowing how you want to interpret it later there is no way to respond.

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Greta
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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Greta » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:22 am

thedoc wrote:
Greta wrote:All things are ultimately moving towards equilibrium, and the processes of consciousness would seem to be no exception.
That would be invoking the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but does it apply to consciousness?
Given that consciousness and matter are close bedfellows, that would seem likely.

Consider the similarity of dynamics occurring in different domains - growth, metamorphosis, aggregation and disintegration. Reality is filled with fractal and fractal-like dynamics - a Russian doll universe where almost everything is simultaneously an aggregation of smaller things, a component of larger things and a thing in itself.

So I am not so sure of the claim that consciousness is indivisible, given that each individual would seem to be a discrete packet of consciousness. Consider the journey of a "packet" ... in infancy it is turbulent and unstable and over a lifetime it finds some degree of calm and stability. This is the case for both purely energetic things like stars and conscious things like animals.

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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Belinda » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:52 am

waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.
Whatever consciousness is or does what consciousness does not do is intend. What intends is the whole person who is capable of learning. Consciousness is a state of brain-mind in which a person has to be in order to learn or intend.

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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by SnarkyBuddha » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:35 am

Belinda wrote:
waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.
Whatever consciousness is or does what consciousness does not do is intend. What intends is the whole person who is capable of learning. Consciousness is a state of brain-mind in which a person has to be in order to learn or intend.
How do you define consciousness? For me, I tend towards definitions that consciousness is "what it is like" as in, "what it is like to see red." The common example; imagine I have never experienced seeing the color red. If you gave me all the physical information, all starting conditions and physical laws, relevant to seeing color (wavelength, firing of my rods and cones, visual processing, etc.) I would certainly know a lot about seeing red. However, something unbridgeable will still be gained once I actually have the experience of seeing red.

With this definition, I don't see how consciousness could in any way be necessary to learning or intention. A being with our complex hardware could move about and learn, and make decisions based on what was learned, all without having any subjective experience of "what it's like." In fact, it's hard to imagine any functional role for consciousness. We could just as easily be beings "with the lights put out" as Sam Harris calls it.

This brings me back to the original post. While I wouldn't call deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds, etc. expressions of consciousness, it is true that, for us at least, they seem inextricably tied to it. If this is merely phenomenological, and not functional, then it is easy to say it is meaningless, and that it realizing itself cannot provide any answers to life. I'd like to believe that consciousness does carry some meaning with it, that perhaps it is the meaning, a universe that is not completely dark, where at least some of the lights are left on. I don't know if this is falsifiable at all, and I should thus be embarrassed to run around with the idea, but I'm having fun with it :P

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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Belinda » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:15 pm

SnarkyBuddha wrote:
Belinda wrote:
waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.
Whatever consciousness is or does what consciousness does not do is intend. What intends is the whole person who is capable of learning. Consciousness is a state of brain-mind in which a person has to be in order to learn or intend.
(Snarky Buddha)How do you define consciousness? For me, I tend towards definitions that consciousness is "what it is like" as in, "what it is like to see red." The common example; imagine I have never experienced seeing the color red. If you gave me all the physical information, all starting conditions and physical laws, relevant to seeing color (wavelength, firing of my rods and cones, visual processing, etc.) I would certainly know a lot about seeing red. However, something unbridgeable will still be gained once I actually have the experience of seeing red.

(Belinda)So would you say that your definition is solely mental? Mine is physical too as well as mental. Unfortunately and for anatomical reasons we cannot empirically correlate the subjective perception with the objective perception, and have to correlate only by by correlating subjects' private reports, or interpreting their behaviours together with anatomical events. Reflex movements are closer than are e.g. memories to empirical observations of conjunctions of events.



SB)With this definition, I don't see how consciousness could in any way be necessary to learning or intention. A being with our complex hardware could move about and learn, and make decisions based on what was learned, all without having any subjective experience of "what it's like." In fact, it's hard to imagine any functional role for consciousness. We could just as easily be beings "with the lights put out" as Sam Harris calls it.
(B)Me too I can't see any functional role for consciousness. We really have to beware of empowered machines! I do see an evolutionary cause of consciousness though.

(SB)This brings me back to the original post. While I wouldn't call deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds, etc. expressions of consciousness, it is true that, for us at least, they seem inextricably tied to it.
(B) I'm reasonably sure they are tied to it, for us at least.

(SB)If this is merely phenomenological, and not functional, then it is easy to say it is meaningless, and that it realizing itself cannot provide any answers to life. I'd like to believe that consciousness does carry some meaning with it, that perhaps it is the meaning, a universe that is not completely dark, where at least some of the lights are left on.(I like to too.

(B)It's a religious thing isn't it? To fancy that we are the universe looking at itself?

(SB)I don't know if this is falsifiable at all, and I should thus be embarrassed to run around with the idea, but I'm having fun with it :P
(B) I don't think you should be embarassed! Let's put it on Twitter!

BradburyPound
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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by BradburyPound » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:55 pm

waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.

What is consciousness then? And how does it get the volition to want to express itself?

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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Beauty » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:19 am

waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.
Well, perhaps not to realize itself, for that it would already have done, but to just live life as in I make a store or movie and then make money and also enjoy my creation, not so much as to explore possibilities or avenues or heights or depths, but just live life.

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waechter418
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Re: Proposition (1)

Post by waechter418 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:26 pm

Beauty, i like your your approach !

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