Proposition (1)

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Wyman
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:21 pm

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Wyman » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:04 am

HexHammer wrote:
waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.
Incoherent nonsense and babble!!
I second that!

Reflex
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Reflex » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:27 pm

waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.
I can accept that as a proposition. What's next?

osgart
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by osgart » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:08 am

it takes intention to create a living creature. So intention and thus consciousness is apart of existence.
To only deal with consciousness in physical terms is dissatisfying and leaves much to be desired. There is too many holes in that logic.
Whats physical wont ever be able to explain consciousness. It totally ignores the intellect dimension of reality.
You will never explain consciousness with particles and waves.
Thats comparing two separate things. And it ignores intentionality evidenced in nature.
So consciousness; heart, mind and will is a total else dimension of existence, not measurable or quantifiable. Rather it is intensely qualitative to the degree that it is purposeful.
You might say that ideas themselves exist.
So there must be an logical force in nature! This logical force acts on nature but cant control it or tame it very well.
And we are temporarily bound by physics.
The logical force is qualitative information.
The logical force operates on physics but it is not physical in a way we would be able too touch it or know it physically.
You would have to access it by figuring out its intelligence and language.
This intelligence is not ordinary matter and yet it shapes and forms and constructs the material world as much as it can. Its as if their is an unfelt and unseen database that is non local and creates information on the universe through trial and error and error correction. This database or logical force exists everywhere in the universe. It compiles both qualitative and quantitative information.

User avatar
Vendetta
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:28 pm
Location: ehville

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Vendetta » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:38 pm

waechter418 wrote:All our deeds, emotions, thoughts, creeds – and whatever else we are trying to relate ourselves with – are expression of consciousness which thus exercises its possibilities in order to realize itself.
Isn't this self-contradictory? In order for consciousness to seek out itself it requires an awareness of the existence of itself and therefore must understand the concept of itself. There would be nothing more to realize.

osgart
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by osgart » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:14 pm

I would think that entropy leads to total instability and than chaos again. but does chaos henceforth turn back into order and who or what made order out of chaos in the first place

Walker
Posts: 4098
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Walker » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:39 pm

osgart wrote:I would think that entropy leads to total instability and than chaos again. but does chaos henceforth turn back into order and who or what made order out of chaos in the first place
I think that increasing entropy leads to greater stability. Am I wrong?

osgart
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by osgart » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:47 pm

how does disorder create stability?

Walker
Posts: 4098
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Walker » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:19 pm

I'm sorry, but you stepped out of sequence.

I asked the question.

Now, you must answer, not ask questions.

In order to do so, you must clarify your understanding of entropy.
Do some reading, or thinking.

I won't do it for you, but to not be a total jerk, I'll tell you what I think.

Via thinking, it seems like the greatest state of stasis naturally allows for the least possibility of change, and no change is the state of greatest stability.

osgart
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by osgart » Sat Apr 29, 2017 10:20 pm

so the universe has no hope of lasting as it currently is and all will fall to stillness and darkness and no more light

I tend to believe the universe will collapse and become chaotic and than start recycling it's energies . at some point the universe became orderly so there must be a move from disorder to order as well.

otherwise why don't we see that everything is always going to be equilibrium and lifeless stillness

we shouldn't have things in constant motion if entropy is the final stage of the universe.

Belinda
Posts: 1556
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Belinda » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:28 am

osgart wrote:how does disorder create stability?
I understand that the Big Bang set off the energy that caused ordered systems which oppose entropy. What looks like an apparent balance between entropy and order is really the slow slow overall capitulation to entropy, and entropy will win eventually.

Walker
Posts: 4098
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Walker » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:44 am

Re: entropy, order, disorder, chaos, stasis
osgart wrote:so the universe has no hope of lasting as it currently is and all will fall to stillness and darkness and no more light

I tend to believe the universe will collapse and become chaotic and than start recycling it's energies . at some point the universe became orderly so there must be a move from disorder to order as well.

otherwise why don't we see that everything is always going to be equilibrium and lifeless stillness

we shouldn't have things in constant motion if entropy is the final stage of the universe.
Look at it through this analogy, since you know what icewater feels like.
- The universe is the ocean.
- The ocean is very cold, and very big.

There are tiny little little furnaces throughout the ocean.
- Compared to the size of the ocean there are not many of them, and they are far apart.

Anything close to a furnace receives energy from the furnace.
- Energy causes motion, from micro to macro.
- Motion results in heat.
- With more things moving, more things exist in constantly changing configurations caused by the movement, which was made possible by input of energy from the furnace, and without which no movement is possible.
- More movement allows more opportunity for seemingly unpatterned movement, i.e. unpredictable, i.e. chaotic.

When a thing gets too far from a furnace, the movement of energy towards entropy is starkly obvious.
- All of the energy (heat from motion) contained within the thing, uniformly dissipates into the surrounding ocean, which is very big, and very cold. The effect of the energy transferring into the ocean causes a negligible change in temperature in the ocean, because the ocean absorbs that teensie bit of heat uniformly. The thing reaches energetic stasis with the surroundings.
- It’s like the polar plunge, with no way out.

Away from a furnace, a particular thing from micro to macro stops moving.
- It reaches a high state of stasis, an energetic balance with the surroundings, a high state of entropy, and a low state of energy.
- The total energy is the same. It has simply been scattered through the entire universe.
- That's a lot of scattering in an infinite universe.

This is why the Butterfly Effect is bogus.
- By the time the flap of a butterfly wing causally connects with the other side of the planet, that energy has dissipated into all of the atmosphere like a fart in a hurricane, although worriers are attentive to cows and weather.

Here’s a more down-to-earth manifestation of the natural principle of entropy:
- Take one guy with a billion dollars.
- This much focused energy could move mountains. It’s a furnace of energy.
- Dissipate all that energy to all the folks on the planet and it won’t move jack squat, because it has been entropitized.
- Not one person could get a decent cup of coffee after the uniform distribution of all that energy.
- There certainly won't be any chaotic mountain moving as a direct result.

This is why increasing entropy leads to greater stability.

osgart
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by osgart » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:52 am

that's clear the way you put it. And science wise that is the fate of the universe . no getting around that.

order and intelligence baffles me though. how these things emerge from chaos complexity

Walker
Posts: 4098
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Proposition (1)

Post by Walker » Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:04 am

Ain’t it the truth, although knowledge of everything except knowledge of one's own existence, including fate, is an inference. Somehow, movement does have order. Even chaos can transform into order, like one of those magic-eye pictures, where focus must change to perceive the order that was always there, within the chaos that was once all that could be perceived.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests