Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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daramantus
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by daramantus » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:13 am

RG1 wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:29 am
Do you believe in limited free will?
̶N̶o̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶f̶r̶e̶e̶-̶w̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶.̶
Yes, there is free-will at all. Unless you define your version of free-will that limits your own free-will. Even tho, that would be your version and your own definition, and your own limitation that by yourself you want to agree upon.
Even the most materialistic approach can only point to free-will, even limited, otherwise you get contradictions and fallacies. https://io9.gizmodo.com/yes-free-will-i ... 1391727322
RG1 wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:29 am
Well, since we really don’t “think” (create thoughts), as we can only ‘experience’ thoughts. So I believe “I experience thoughts (and feelings and sensory awareness), therefore I (the experiencer) exist.
Yes we do think. viewtopic.php?p=343025#p343025
RG1 wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:29 am
Are you conscious of yourself?
If you mean, can I experience myself? Then no, not possible. I can only experience experiences, not objects themselves directly.
And one of them could be yourself, and not an experience. Actually you don't experience experiences, you experience, things or emotions, or etc.... So you don't even make sense.

daramantus
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:44 pm

Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by daramantus » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:22 am

Londoner wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:56 am
daramantus wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:20 am
Nope. consciousness is not existence. Both are totally distinct topics and has different meaning and definitions, are separate topics for they are not even related. existence emans something is existent, and has existence, in comparison to something which doesn't.
Consciousness is what you have now that makes you conscious of your surroundings.
They sound very closely related to me. If, as you say, 'existence' refers to 'things', I only know of things if I am conscious of them.
Existence 'out there' would simply mean, an object 'out there' in Italia, that you're not seeing, observing, being conscious or aware of or knowing about its existence, and yet, the object, remains as it is, it has existence. that's why we find new planets that was never discovered before, because they exist, without anyone noticing, knowing r being aware of them.
If that was the case, then we cannot say of anything that is doesn't exist. There may be fairies and unicorns and flying teapots all over the place - we just haven't, or can't, discover them. And, if there is no connection between things existing and our being conscious of them, who is to say that those newly discovered planets exist?

Either we know that things exist because we have become conscious of them, as with those new planets, or consciousness has nothing to do with existence, as you say in your first paragraph.
Existence, means to exist, have inherent existence. To have its own substance, huh? who is saying anything about unicorns here? Of course consciousness DO NOT equal EXISTENCE, both are totally distinct topics and that's not even debatable. You have consciousness, and you do exist, the tree has no consciousness. but still 'exist' in its way.
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FULL IMAGE: https://ibb.co/n2Ff7w

CONSCIOUSNESS DO NOT EQUAL EXISTENCE.

Londoner
Posts: 760
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:47 am

Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by Londoner » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:03 am

daramantus wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:22 am

Existence, means to exist, have inherent existence. To have its own substance, huh? who is saying anything about unicorns here? Of course consciousness DO NOT equal EXISTENCE, both are totally distinct topics and that's not even debatable. You have consciousness, and you do exist, the tree has no consciousness. but still 'exist' in its way.

CONSCIOUSNESS DO NOT EQUAL EXISTENCE.
You have shifted your ground. There is a difference between saying CONSCIOUSNESS DO NOT EQUAL EXISTENCE and what you said earlier:
Both are totally distinct topics and has different meaning and definitions, are separate topics for they are not even related.
Certainly the two words 'consciousness' and 'existence' are not synonyms, but they are 'related'.

Suppose you say the tree exists, but I say it doesn't. How might we resolve our disagreement?

(But remembering that if 'existence' and 'consciousness' are not even related, we are not allowed to refer to anything in our consciousness, for example that we can see or touch the tree).

If, given that restriction, we have no way of explaining what we mean if we assert the tree 'exists', then that claim is meaningless.

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