Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Philosophy Explorer
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Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:56 pm

It would seem so. I equate consciousness with existence which would imply I have limited free will, otherwise who is doing the willing?

PhilX

tbieter
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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by tbieter » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:14 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:It would seem so. I equate consciousness with existence which would imply I have limited free will, otherwise who is doing the willing?

PhilX
Please clarify.

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:07 am

tbieter wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:It would seem so. I equate consciousness with existence which would imply I have limited free will, otherwise who is doing the willing?

PhilX
Please clarify.
What don't you understand?

PhilX

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by tbieter » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:55 am

Does an unconscious thing have a will?

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:00 am

tbieter wrote:Does an unconscious thing have a will?
Consciousness guarantees limited free will while unconsciousness may or may not, depending.

PhilX

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by RG1 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:58 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?
"Free-will" equates to "conscious control". Neither exists. So then we are left with just being 'experiencing machines', nothing more.

The word "consciousness" was invented to create a feel-good experience; to create an aura of mystical-ness; to satisfy the desires of autonomy and specialness.

"Consciousness" is nothing more than "experiences".

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:40 pm

RG1 wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?
"Free-will" equates to "conscious control". Neither exists. So then we are left with just being 'experiencing machines', nothing more.

The word "consciousness" was invented to create a feel-good experience; to create an aura of mystical-ness; to satisfy the desires of autonomy and specialness.

"Consciousness" is nothing more than "experiences".
Do you believe in limited free will? Do you believe in " I think, therefore I exist?" as free will would lead to thinking. Are you conscious of yourself?

PhilX

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by Dalek Prime » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:09 am

No. If I'm a puppet, I may not be aware of that fact, but it doesn't lessen my experience of my puppet life.
Last edited by Dalek Prime on Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by RG1 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:29 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote: Do you believe in limited free will?
No, there is no free-will at all.
Philosophy Explorer wrote:Do you believe in "I think, therefore I exist?" as free will would lead to thinking
Well, since we really don’t “think” (create thoughts), as we can only ‘experience’ thoughts. So I believe “I experience thoughts (and feelings and sensory awareness), therefore I (the experiencer) exist.
Philosophy Explorer wrote:Are you conscious of yourself?
If you mean, can I experience myself? Then no, not possible. I can only experience experiences, not objects themselves directly.

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by The Voice of Time » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:17 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:I equate consciousness with existence

PhilX
There's no reason with why you should equate consciousness with existence. Do you even have a solid meaning behind talking about "existence"? Or did you mean to say that consciousness "implies" existence, so that your actual question is whether or not consciousness (of something) should imply the existence (of something)... ?

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by Dalek Prime » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:53 pm

The Voice of Time wrote:
Philosophy Explorer wrote:I equate consciousness with existence

PhilX
There's no reason with why you should equate consciousness with existence. Do you even have a solid meaning behind talking about "existence"? Or did you mean to say that consciousness "implies" existence, so that your actual question is whether or not consciousness (of something) should imply the existence (of something)... ?
It's not so much equating existence to consciousness; existence is the precursor to consciousness. And as I experience, it doesn't matter whether I am capable of choosing the experience or not. I'm still aware of it.

There's a lot of incorrect equating going on here.

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:44 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:I equate consciousness with existence

PhilX
There is no existence out there, except what the subjective puts there. Consciousness is the connecting link between subjective nature(unconscious awareness) and the object known (consciousness).

There is something out-there evidenced by the subjective experience. Who or what is experiencing subjectively can never be known since there is nothing outside the subjective experience separate from the subject.

Intention is the rider of the will.

Consciousness is you.

There is nothing outside of you but you.

You are consciously directing your own life.

What ever consciousness clings to will become it's reality ... and yet at the same time consciousness is totally void of anything at all times.

Any thing inside consciousness is it's own generated idea, we can call these reality maps, or stored memory from (unconscious awareness) when a thought is owned by becoming conscious of, it becomes real to the subject. So say there is a fear thought. That thought will become real to you, even though there is no such thing as fear except an idea. The consciousness is quite capable of unhinging from all troubling thoughts, and in doing so returns to it's natural balanced resting state of unconscious awareness which is true reality.

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by daramantus » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:13 am

RG1 wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:58 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote:Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?
"Free-will" equates to "conscious control". Neither exists. So then we are left with just being 'experiencing machines', nothing more.

The word "consciousness" was invented to create a feel-good experience; to create an aura of mystical-ness; to satisfy the desires of autonomy and specialness.

̶"̶C̶o̶n̶s̶c̶i̶o̶u̶s̶n̶e̶s̶s̶"̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶"̶e̶x̶p̶e̶r̶i̶e̶n̶c̶e̶s̶"̶
False.

Have you heard the hard problem of consciousness, mate?
When you eat an apple, you taste it, it's good, you have a good experience. When you stop feeling welll about you yourself eating the apple, do you become unconscious after that experience?
How is consciousness " ̶n̶o̶t̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶e̶" or how is your consciousness even related to the experience you just had?
That's completely nonsensical, both are totally distinct unrelated topics.
You have a consciousness, and you do experience things.

The word consciousness was NEVER invented to create any "feel-good" bullshit you're claiming. That's why it's the hard problem of physics. it has nothing to do with new-age crap.
Try to find the word "experience" here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... sciousness

You have your one consciousness, and I have my own consciousness.
What was invented to create a "feel-good" feeling, is the phrase "we are all one consciousness" ,that's the bs, hippy-dippy false phrase that has no basis on anything, and it's complete bullshit

daramantus
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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by daramantus » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:20 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:44 am
Philosophy Explorer wrote:I equate consciousness with existence

PhilX
There is no existence out there, except what the subjective puts there. Consciousness is the connecting link between subjective nature(unconscious awareness) and the object known (consciousness).

There is something out-there evidenced by the subjective experience. Who or what is experiencing subjectively can never be known since there is nothing outside the subjective experience separate from the subject.

Intention is the rider of the will.

Consciousness is you.

There is nothing outside of you but you.

You are consciously directing your own life.

What ever consciousness clings to will become it's reality ... and yet at the same time consciousness is totally void of anything at all times.

Any thing inside consciousness is it's own generated idea, we can call these reality maps, or stored memory from (unconscious awareness) when a thought is owned by becoming conscious of, it becomes real to the subject. So say there is a fear thought. That thought will become real to you, even though there is no such thing as fear except an idea. The consciousness is quite capable of unhinging from all troubling thoughts, and in doing so returns to it's natural balanced resting state of unconscious awareness which is true reality.

Nope. consciousness is not existence. Both are totally distinct topics and has different meaning and definitions, are separate topics for they are not even related. existence emans something is existent, and has existence, in comparison to something which doesn't.
Consciousness is what you have now that makes you conscious of your surroundings.
Existence 'out there' would simply mean, an object 'out there' in Italia, that you're not seeing, observing, being conscious or aware of or knowing about its existence, and yet, the object, remains as it is, it has existence. that's why we find new planets that was never discovered before, because they exist, without anyone noticing, knowing r being aware of them.

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Re: Does not having free will mean there's no consciousness?

Post by Londoner » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:56 am

daramantus wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:20 am
Nope. consciousness is not existence. Both are totally distinct topics and has different meaning and definitions, are separate topics for they are not even related. existence emans something is existent, and has existence, in comparison to something which doesn't.
Consciousness is what you have now that makes you conscious of your surroundings.
They sound very closely related to me. If, as you say, 'existence' refers to 'things', I only know of things if I am conscious of them.
Existence 'out there' would simply mean, an object 'out there' in Italia, that you're not seeing, observing, being conscious or aware of or knowing about its existence, and yet, the object, remains as it is, it has existence. that's why we find new planets that was never discovered before, because they exist, without anyone noticing, knowing r being aware of them.
If that was the case, then we cannot say of anything that is doesn't exist. There may be fairies and unicorns and flying teapots all over the place - we just haven't, or can't, discover them. And, if there is no connection between things existing and our being conscious of them, who is to say that those newly discovered planets exist?

Either we know that things exist because we have become conscious of them, as with those new planets, or consciousness has nothing to do with existence, as you say in your first paragraph.

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