Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:29 pm

Harbal wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: A dolphins would say the same thing about those stupid two legged morons in boats.
I wonder what it is that you imagine dolphins can achieve mentally that is so superior.
Depends on your criteria. But if you chose human ones then a human would probably win. A least dolphins don't wear hats.

How about being able to swim through complicated mazes in the dark?

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Harbal
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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Harbal » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:34 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote: A least dolphins don't wear hats.
I don't suppose humans would if they spent as much time underwater.
How about being able to swim through complicated mazes in the dark?
How often have you regretted not being able to do that?

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:07 pm

Harbal wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: A least dolphins don't wear hats.
I don't suppose humans would if they spent as much time underwater.
How about being able to swim through complicated mazes in the dark?
How often have you regretted not being able to do that?
You asked what mental acts a dolphin could perform, not whether of not I regret not being able to do what a dolphin can do.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Harbal » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:28 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
You asked what mental acts a dolphin could perform, not whether of not I regret not being able to do what a dolphin can do.
If you think that dolphins have superior minds to humans it can't be based solely on the shape and size of their brains. There must be something else about them that leads you to that conclusion.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Walker » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:05 pm

Harbal wrote:
Walker wrote:
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:If you didn't insist on writing gibberish perhaps you might get your 'points' across better. (Or is that the point?)
Every possession carries a responsibility to use it or lose it. You learn a word, you own it.
It's not so much your words that are the problem, it's more what you do with them.
I give every word that discovers me a fair shake. What more could any word hope for?

(Just look at all the folks "no" has found)

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:18 pm

Harbal wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
You asked what mental acts a dolphin could perform, not whether of not I regret not being able to do what a dolphin can do.
If you think that dolphins have superior minds to humans it can't be based solely on the shape and size of their brains. There must be something else about them that leads you to that conclusion.
Dolphins are masters of their environment. They have long lives and seem to have fun. They can do clever stuff too.
But the thread is about complexity, and that is why I mentioned the brain of a dolphin, which is (regardless of what you say) more complex than your own brain.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Harbal » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:23 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:the brain of a dolphin, which is (regardless of what you say) more complex than your own brain.
I don't say anything. I don't have a problem with the dolphin's brain being more complex than mine, I'm just interested in how it is manifested.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:31 pm

Harbal wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:the brain of a dolphin, which is (regardless of what you say) more complex than your own brain.
I don't say anything. I don't have a problem with the dolphin's brain being more complex than mine, I'm just interested in how it is manifested.
It is manifested in a variety of ways we can have no access to experience, since we do not have such a complex brain or a dolphin's body.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Greta » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:24 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Harbal wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
You asked what mental acts a dolphin could perform, not whether of not I regret not being able to do what a dolphin can do.
If you think that dolphins have superior minds to humans it can't be based solely on the shape and size of their brains. There must be something else about them that leads you to that conclusion.
Dolphins are masters of their environment. They have long lives and seem to have fun. They can do clever stuff too.
But the thread is about complexity, and that is why I mentioned the brain of a dolphin, which is (regardless of what you say) more complex than your own brain.
One one level I see brains per se as just one more example of nature's tendency for relatively homogeneous material to form areas of concentration as they cool - particlisation. Atoms, gas clouds, stars, planets, galaxies, galactic clusters, cells, multicellular structures, encephalisation, colonies, cities, institutions ... in each case some area of greater concentration starts building up more rapidly than the surrounding environment and in time new properties emerge from the buildup.

No matter which way one looks at it, human and dolphin brains appear certain to be superseded by things that are kilo-for-kilo, much more information-dense.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Dubious » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:19 am

If humans ever build a processor more dense and complex than the human brain - likely to happen at some point - would we call that the most complex object in the Universe? In our localized field can we even guess in what form the most complex objects may exist; neither can we be certain if greater complexity automatically yields greater intelligence. At what point would the law of diminishing returns yield zero. Or put another way, how many advils would you need to kill a headache?

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Walker » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:52 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Harbal wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:the brain of a dolphin, which is (regardless of what you say) more complex than your own brain.
I don't say anything. I don't have a problem with the dolphin's brain being more complex than mine, I'm just interested in how it is manifested.
It is manifested in a variety of ways we can have no access to experience, since we do not have such a complex brain or a dolphin's body.
Sounds like faith.

We can only imagine the complex private thoughts of a dolphin as an implication of brain size.

However, we can examine their movements that indicate complexity of mind.

Behavior such as eating fish. Self-defense. Swimming. Smiling. Nonsense noises.

Apparently their intelligence manifests with all the brilliance of a sea bass.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:07 pm

Greta wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Harbal wrote: If you think that dolphins have superior minds to humans it can't be based solely on the shape and size of their brains. There must be something else about them that leads you to that conclusion.
Dolphins are masters of their environment. They have long lives and seem to have fun. They can do clever stuff too.
But the thread is about complexity, and that is why I mentioned the brain of a dolphin, which is (regardless of what you say) more complex than your own brain.
One one level I see brains per se as just one more example of nature's tendency for relatively homogeneous material to form areas of concentration as they cool - particlisation. Atoms, gas clouds, stars, planets, galaxies, galactic clusters, cells, multicellular structures, encephalisation, colonies, cities, institutions ... in each case some area of greater concentration starts building up more rapidly than the surrounding environment and in time new properties emerge from the buildup.

No matter which way one looks at it, human and dolphin brains appear certain to be superseded by things that are kilo-for-kilo, much more information-dense.
At some point, no doubt, if the owners of that brain manage to survive better because of it. This is not certain as it seems very possible that the human propensity to make complex neural matter seems to be leading inexorably towards world-wide biological disaster.
The propensity to complexity is not inherent in the general but in the specific cases that we see due to the activity thus produced. I think this is of a different kind of matter concentrations to atoms in space, in which the propensity to coalesce is inherent in gravity and general principles.
The contingencies of evolution do not follow the gross necessities of the atomic force or gravity though it does rely on those forces like all natural phenomena.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:08 pm

Walker wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Harbal wrote: I don't say anything. I don't have a problem with the dolphin's brain being more complex than mine, I'm just interested in how it is manifested.
It is manifested in a variety of ways we can have no access to experience, since we do not have such a complex brain or a dolphin's body.
Sounds like faith.
.
Seriously, this sounds like you are just another idiot.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Walker » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:42 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Walker wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
It is manifested in a variety of ways we can have no access to experience, since we do not have such a complex brain or a dolphin's body.
Sounds like faith.
.
Seriously, this sounds like you are just another idiot.
That’s a shame.

It’s not that I don’t like dolphins.

Maybe it’s that song I’m hearing.
It never really moved me.

You know the one.
You like dolphins.

Maybe you like the song, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EifnM3pRLdQ

It’s all good means that everything is a gift.

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Re: Do you regard the human brain as the most complex object in the universe?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:29 pm

Walker wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Walker wrote: Sounds like faith.
.
Seriously, this sounds like you are just another idiot.
That’s a shame.

It’s not that I don’t like dolphins.
Nothing to do with dolphins.

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