~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Bill Wiltrack
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~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Bill Wiltrack » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:58 pm

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Selfishness is inseparability woven into our natural state of consciousness. Our natural, healthy worldview.


With this in mind is altruism a virtue? Is altruism even possible for a culture or large group of people?


How could it even be conceivable that a large group of fire would be able to, expect to, or even want to, create it's opposite - water?






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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Arising_uk » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:16 am

I thought you said "If"?

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Re: ~ Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Bill Wiltrack » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:26 am

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Did say if...in the title...to set the table for a more open discussion.


Restated the thesis in first sentence of original associated post box.


...FTFY



...oh, & by the way, you are free to begin to discuss the actual philosophical implications of this deeply relevant philosophical concept.





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ken
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby ken » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:32 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.






[size=111]Selfishness is inseparability woven into our natural state of consciousness.


Selfishness may well be inseparability woven into your natural state of consciousness, but selfishness is NOT inseparability woven into My natural state of consciousness.

I will allow you to speak for yourself, but do not try to speak for Me, nor others thanks.

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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Arising_uk » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:08 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.

...oh, & by the way, you are free to begin to discuss the actual philosophical implications of this deeply relevant philosophical concept.[/size]

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Can't take any concept seriously that uses the word inseparability instead of inseparably, let alone a philosophical one. Add to that starting with an "If" and then ignoring it and it's game over before it's started.

Dubious
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Dubious » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:59 am

Selfishness is inherent in ALL. Anyone who says, "not so" proves himself to be a liar. One of the best compliments is that he/she "is/was one of the least selfish people I ever knew", always a prerequisite in most eulogies which most often amounts to nothing more than hypocrisy and hyperbole.

The point being even if that verdict is correct there still exists a residuum of selfishness in the human psyche simply because selfishness has a function.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Bill Wiltrack » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:45 pm

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I thank the immediately above poster for at least a well thought-out philosophical response. You made the work of reading through the prior chaff that was festooned upon this, formally unfortunate, thread somewhat worth it...


And yes selfishness is our natural state as humans. And this must be so.

Hoping that one or two members would see and present the logical antithesis to my original naked philosophical position.






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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Hobbes' Choice » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:26 pm

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.

[size=111][b]Selfishness is inseparability woven into our natural state of consciousness. [/b

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Humans cannot be characterised by one thing.
We also co-operate; care for others, are giving, friendly, and feel companionship, friendship and love for other humans.
It is a matter of culture and upbringing to what degree we balance these other factors with our selfishness.

In the West the least giving and caring culture is the USA. "Never give a sucker an even break: seems to far outweigh human nature. This is why social policy, unions, and left-wing parties never really got off the ground in the USA the way they did in the UK - because Americans don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves.
This may be party due to the fact the the USA was stolen from the indigenous peoples through genocide, and built on slavery. Only the worst class of human can thrive in that sort of atmosphere. Additionally I think it must be easier to reject the tendency to communitarianism when all around you are people from different countries that you do not feel the same respect for.
New York - far from being a melting pot- is a seething cauldron of festering racial tensions, and ghettos. There is a lack of integration.


So it is no surprise that a person such as yourself who has never left the USA would put up such a question in your post.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Hobbes' Choice » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:27 pm

Dubious wrote:Selfishness is inherent in ALL. Anyone who says, "not so" proves himself to be a liar. One of the best compliments is that he/she "is/was one of the least selfish people I ever knew", always a prerequisite in most eulogies which most often amounts to nothing more than hypocrisy and hyperbole.

The point being even if that verdict is correct there still exists a residuum of selfishness in the human psyche simply because selfishness has a function.


Did you have a mother?

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Bill Wiltrack » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:46 pm

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Self-centeredness is a overwhelming characteristic of the state of consciousness that all, normally formed, human beings share.


I am a big proponent of the acknowledgement of mirror-neurons, empathy and the development of higher states of consciousness.


It is there that in the pursuit of a higher state of consciousness is where, I believe, the philosophical conception of altruism becomes valuable.



...understanding that, functionally, we are all the same. And perhaps we are all seeking, in the same arena, a common philosophical goal.







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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Dubious » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:52 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dubious wrote:Selfishness is inherent in ALL. Anyone who says, "not so" proves himself to be a liar. One of the best compliments is that he/she "is/was one of the least selfish people I ever knew", always a prerequisite in most eulogies which most often amounts to nothing more than hypocrisy and hyperbole.

The point being even if that verdict is correct there still exists a residuum of selfishness in the human psyche simply because selfishness has a function.


Did you have a mother?


Don't know for sure. I was born of a virgin the last time I heard! Any other stupid questions???

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Hobbes' Choice » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:46 am

Dubious wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dubious wrote:Selfishness is inherent in ALL. Anyone who says, "not so" proves himself to be a liar. One of the best compliments is that he/she "is/was one of the least selfish people I ever knew", always a prerequisite in most eulogies which most often amounts to nothing more than hypocrisy and hyperbole.

The point being even if that verdict is correct there still exists a residuum of selfishness in the human psyche simply because selfishness has a function.


Did you have a mother?


Don't know for sure. I was born of a virgin the last time I heard! Any other stupid questions???


So was your mum a selfish bitch like you?

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Dubious » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:05 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dubious wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Did you have a mother?


Don't know for sure. I was born of a virgin the last time I heard! Any other stupid questions???


So was your mum a selfish bitch like you?


...no actually she was extremely generous and gave to many causes. Her favorite was for animals, SPCA and wildlife organizations.

Was your mum a stupid bitch to have produced a stupid fucker like you? If your IQ were the world's average it would take another million years just to move up one notch.

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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Bill Wiltrack » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:06 am

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Ladies...Ladies!...LADIES PLEEEEESE!


...could ya take it outside? - As-in, take it outside the post-it boxes that are associated with any of my threads.


I initiate deeply philosophical threads, I enjoy the highest esteem of any poster here, - hell, I even have the privilege of creating the largest viewed and most responded to thread this philosophy site has ever seen... I have repeatedly requested that we treat each other in a civil manner...I can even understand occasionally losing one's temper...That happens in a spirited, deeply meaningful conversation sometimes. BUT I CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND why calling a fellow member would appear to one as a viable way to further a legitimate philosophical flow of ideas.


Just don't get it.





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Arising_uk
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Re: ~ If Selfishness is Our Natural State of Individual Consciousness...~

Postby Arising_uk » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:53 am

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.Self-centeredness is a overwhelming characteristic of the state of consciousness that all, normally formed, human beings share.
But is this the same as selfishness? As Ayn Rand pointed out there is an issue with what the word "selfishness" is meant to describe, so what do you mean by selfishness and how does it relate to this 'self-centeredness' and what does this mean too?
I am a big proponent of the acknowledgement of mirror-neurons, empathy and the development of higher states of consciousness.
How you can be a proponent of a biological function is beyond me?

What do you think you know about 'mirror-neurons' and their function?

How you link it to 'the development of higher states of consciousness'(whatever these are supposed to be) escapes me as well. What do you mean by this?

It is there that in the pursuit of a higher state of consciousness is where, I believe, the philosophical conception of altruism becomes valuable. ...
Does it, how?
...understanding that, functionally, we are all the same. And perhaps we are all seeking, in the same arena, a common philosophical goal.
Such as?


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