~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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hammock
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by hammock »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:Consciousness; self-consciousness may have nothing directly to do with our brain functioning; our processing.Self-consciousness might just come based upon unrelated or as yet undetectable reality that we might necessarily be blind to.

This duality of "appearances" and an "antecedent ground" for them is older than the hills, though. Before the positivism and analytic schools and the 20th century dominance of metaphysical naturalism, this was arguably THE core current moving philosophy along. Wittgenstein= "Why do I wish to call our present activity philosophy, when we also call Plato's activity philosophy? Perhaps because of a certain analogy between them, or perhaps because of the continuous development of the subject. Or the new activity may take the place of the old because it removes mental discomforts the old was supposed to."

But even in the old school, a natural explanation for "self-consciousness" [the brain] should be expected just as one is to be found for almost anything. That is - in the sensible / intellectual world dichotomy - the very result of the physical counterparts of unconditioned things being being brought into relational co-existence with each other is that they thus become causes for each other. An interdependence [as opposed to the idea of "things in themselves"] which is key to the overall character of such a conditioned reality.

IOW, in the Eleatic / Platonic descended tradition: The sensible / physical world is subsumed or assimilated under [supersensible, metaphysical, transcendent, noumenal, etc] requirements that make the former possible. That there is a natural explanation for any observed circumstance is actually unremarkable and non-threatening to belief in the former, since it falls out of the very setup of the view. This is why later adherents (like Berkeley and Leibniz) could champion science without conflict to their choice of an intellectual realm (minds, monads, etc). But as Kant clarified, this intelligible ground isn't really of much use to its phenomenal offspring apart from providing a non-contingent basis for morality and hopes of "freedom, immortality, etc" (after death or in-between whatever embodied manifestations as something natural).

Philosophical or metaphysical naturalism, OTOH, is an approach that flip-flops that ancient tradition and treats the spatiotemporal world itself as if it is its own conditions for making it possible. [As an alternative, there's also the positivism context for naturalism that instead dismisses metaphysics altogether as a futile enterprise.] Even in philosophical naturalism, one can apparently still offer a brand of generic subjectivity, as Thomas W. Clark and others have done in the past. But that's just submitting basic attributes for a conscious agent that accordingly outrun or survive any particular instantiation of such. Identifying those general conditions to be the fundamental "you" means that you thereby [in some sense] continue as other occurrences of consciousness. I.e., this common subject [the form or template underlying / overarching the specific ones] is "distributed".
Thomas W. Clark wrote:But since we've ruled out nothingness or non-experience as the fate of subjectivity what, then, are plausible answers to such questions? The first one we can dispense with fairly readily. The "me" characterized by personality and memory simply ends. No longer will experience occur in the context of such personality and memory. The second question ("What's next?") is a little trickier, because, unless we suppose that my death is coincident with the end of the entire universe, we can't responsibly answer "nothing." Nothing is precisely what can't happen next. What happens next must be something, and part of that something consists in various sorts of consciousness. In the very ordinary sense that other centers of awareness exist and come into being, experience continues after my death. This is the something (along with many other things) which follows the end of my particular set of experiences.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Not sure what you were trying to say but - I think you used too many words...


I do appreciate your participation in this thread though. That's for sure.







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Ginkgo
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by Ginkgo »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.






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Not sure what you were trying to say but - I think you used too many words...


I do appreciate your participation in this thread though. That's for sure.







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Bill, perhaps we can say that you are a substance dualist in the tradition of Descartes:

Substance dualism holds that the mind is a non-physical substance,complete distinct from physical substances. Descartes clearly identified the mind with consciousness and self-awareness and distinguished this from the brain -physical substance- as the seat of intelligence. (wiki)

What you seem to want is an autonomous individual who can make choices when it comes to higher or extended consciousness. "Coming to" was the way you put it. The autonomous individual does make choices and these choices can impact on the world. but ultimately consciousness is not caused by anything. Consciousness in this view is self-caused or uncaused. This claim also has important implications for free will.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to articulate your perspective.






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uwot
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by uwot »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:Excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to articulate your perspective.
And thank you, Poor Bill; for taking the time to show us someone else's.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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And thank you for displaying that you think that the thoughts that pass through you are yours.



Common. Not philosophical...nor even interesting
, given the fact that we are actually on a philosophical site.




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uwot
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by uwot »

I think my idea that gravity is essentially refraction is fairly original, at least I am not aware that anyone else has expressed it, but generally I think that Descartes was right and that there is no position so strange that some philosopher hasn't held it. Even that was said by some Roman philosopher, maybe Seneca; but as someone else said, it is the privilege of people who know what they are talking about to misquote others.
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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

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Excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to articulate your perspective.






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Image







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Ginkgo
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by Ginkgo »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.



Excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to articulate your perspective.






That's OK Bill, but it isn't my perspective. You will find my views in the extensive literature.
uwot
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by uwot »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:Excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to articulate your perspective.
Well, that's the thing, isn't it, Poor Bill? I've gone to the trouble of developing my language skills: if now people fail to understand, the two most likely causes are that I am talking bollocks, or the listener is a bit dim. You may console yourself with the former; I shall do so with the latter.
Language, for all its imperfection, particularly context, is a good deal more efficient than imagery. This idea of yours that Gifs are the next step in philosophy is implausible. In fact, communicating with people you are not directly confronted with by images predates written language by many millennia, as caves and rock art across the globe show. Images have a role in any communication, most obviously art, which has a number of languages itself that take some learning. But images are unlikely to replace language in philosophy; we have moved on. For all your declarations of novelty, you are effectively using stone-age skills. Get with the words, Poor Bill.
Wyman
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by Wyman »

uwot wrote:
Bill Wiltrack wrote:Excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to articulate your perspective.
Well, that's the thing, isn't it, Poor Bill? I've gone to the trouble of developing my language skills: if now people fail to understand, the two most likely causes are that I am talking bollocks, or the listener is a bit dim. You may console yourself with the former; I shall do so with the latter.
Language, for all its imperfection, particularly context, is a good deal more efficient than imagery. This idea of yours that Gifs are the next step in philosophy is implausible. In fact, communicating with people you are not directly confronted with by images predates written language by many millennia, as caves and rock art across the globe show. Images have a role in any communication, most obviously art, which has a number of languages itself that take some learning. But images are unlikely to replace language in philosophy; we have moved on. For all your declarations of novelty, you are effectively using stone-age skills. Get with the words, Poor Bill.

Is that what he's doing? I never knew until you just explained it. Caveman Bill.
Questionmark
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Re: ~ Metaphor of Self-consciousness ~

Post by Questionmark »

Wyman wrote:
uwot wrote:
Bill Wiltrack wrote:Excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to articulate your perspective.
Well, that's the thing, isn't it, Poor Bill? I've gone to the trouble of developing my language skills: if now people fail to understand, the two most likely causes are that I am talking bollocks, or the listener is a bit dim. You may console yourself with the former; I shall do so with the latter.
Language, for all its imperfection, particularly context, is a good deal more efficient than imagery. This idea of yours that Gifs are the next step in philosophy is implausible. In fact, communicating with people you are not directly confronted with by images predates written language by many millennia, as caves and rock art across the globe show. Images have a role in any communication, most obviously art, which has a number of languages itself that take some learning. But images are unlikely to replace language in philosophy; we have moved on. For all your declarations of novelty, you are effectively using stone-age skills. Get with the words, Poor Bill.

Is that what he's doing? I never knew until you just explained it. Caveman Bill.
I know, I haven't been here long.. But I find this entertaining
Very illustrated always with lots of colours and plenty free line for extra time to think and stuff ; )
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